Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey, welcome to the Generation Spark podcast. Spark dialogue. It's really good to be here with you again. Unfortunately for today, my partner John Simon isn't here today, but fortunately, I've got a new guest partner joining me today. He's a friend of mine. He's a youth pastor and father, and I'm just not going to spend too much time diving into this. He's an American trying to be Canadian. So. Josh Sweetman, thanks for joining me today.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Ron, it is a pleasure to join you today on this podcast. You know, you want to say these things that callers always say when they call into radio shows. You know, it's like longtime listener, first time caller, so long time listener for as long as this podcast has been going. But, boy, it's a pleasure to join you and to, and to step in for John and to help host and be a guest all at the same time. It's great. I'm enjoying it.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: You're okay with wearing two or three hats for this call because that's, that's really what I'm going to do with you today. Is that all right?
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Let's put as many hats on as we can and we'll see where the conversation goes. I'm excited.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: I love the fact that you're wearing a baseball hat because that just really leads into where I want to go today with getting to know us a little bit more. If you're a regular listener every once in a while, John and I. Well, actually, all the time. John and I kind of, kind of set the tone a little bit, you know, a little bit of fun. Fun. Just getting to know each other a little bit. Our favorite things or movies we've watched or whatever. Today, Josh and I share a love, a passion for this sport called baseball. Now, unfortunately, I believe, and I'm not sure about this, but I'm not so sure that you and I cheer for the same team. Is that correct?
[00:01:52] Speaker B: I think you'd be correct. Yeah. You'd be correct in that.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: We cheer for different.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Josh. Josh, tell us what's your favorite baseball team and if you can share a favorite memory of baseball.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. So my favorite baseball team is the Chicago Cubs. I grew up in the south suburbs of Chicago, so that led me to love the Cubs, much to my dad chagrin. Who's a big New York Mets fan, my grandpa. Red Sox fan. Yeah. So, you know, so it was a location thing where I fell in love with the Cubs. They are the lovable loser losers. But all of that changed in 2016, which may be the best year ever because they broke the curse and won the World Series for the first time in 108 years. So the Cubs are near and dear to my heart. All of my Cub stuff I have in my office here at the church, and, you know, it is. It's. It's a deep passion of mine as for, like, a memory, you know, the Cubs and baseball and all this go hand in hand. I played baseball, so I have a lot of memories from that, and they're great memories, but the Cubs are what stick out to me. And I'll never forget being at Wrigley Field when I was about, like, 10 years old and Sammy Sosa was the big star of the Chicago.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: I remember Sammy.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: I remember good Sammy Sosa, big star. Now, there was lots of controversy around him later, but, you know, this was. This was the height of Sammy Sosa in Chicago. You know, it was Michael Jordan, and then it was Sammy Sosa. And so I remember being at Wrigley Field and Sammy Sosa hitting two home runs in one game. And so Sammy Sosa always, when he hit a home run, had this patented kind of leap that he did, so he hit the line and jump up in the air. I remember seeing that live for the first time and just screaming my head off and just absolutely losing my. Myself in this moment with 40,000 other Chicago Cubs fans who are just absolutely elated that he hit a home run. You know, I think the. The ironic part about Sammy Sosa is while he was good and hit a lot of home runs, a lot of his home runs weren't that meaningful of home runs. So I think the Cubs still lost the game I was at, but he hit two home runs, so it was great. I will always remember it. I'll always remember being there. The smells, the feel of the ballpark. Everyone just all on the same page, jumping around, having great time. So that, to me, was one of my biggest baseball highlights of all time. You bet.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: So Wrigley, amazing, amazing place to go to watch a game, right? So I've been there once in my lifetime, once in my life, and it was amazing. I think it was 2021 or 2022, and I went with a bunch of young adults from the crc and we just had a wonderful time. We were up in the high bleachers, but, I mean, it was still amazing to be there, right? And the ivory, of course, and all that. It was. It's amazing, right?
[00:05:01] Speaker B: And so everything put together about Wrigley is so good. You just can't Help but get overwhelmed. You know, there are so many things of, you know, there's, there's a lot of bad things in our world and things. But, you know, Wrigley, it just seems, is a happy place. You know, people say Disney is the happiest place on earth. I would, I would say no way. It's got to be Wrigley Field. I mean, I don't know if I would go as far as saying heaven on earth kind of stuff. You know, we may not want to tread into that.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Wow. You're leaning into a gray area here, my friend.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: I know, I know, I know. So.
But it is, it is a great place. It's a great place. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: And baseball has that feel. Right. So you and I actually played on the same team for a while and I mean, it's just the social interaction and I mean, one of the beautiful things about the team that and I played on it was we had intergenerational elements to it. And, and I, you know, and I know we're going to get into that a little bit later about some of these, you know, things related to intergenerational ministry. But our team was, was definitely multi ethnic, multi generational and to the point where your son would actually take the field at the end of games and just display his prowess, being able to hit and throw a ball. I gotta say, Rory, amazing player. Amazing.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. And he still talks about that. He loved those moments of being able to come on the field and, and, and be part of the team, while not in the actual game itself, but felt, felt invested in the team. So that was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just great.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: Beautiful. So I'm gonna share with you my favorite team. Yeah. So again, you know, we got a little bit of tension here because you're talking American baseball team. I'm talking a baseball team in the American League. That's a Canadian team. And the only Canadian team in the American League, which is the Toronto Blue Jays. And I've been a follower all my life. Well, as long as they've been around in my life, I'm a little bit older than their team, but for me it was, was following them, you know, going to see them in, in the, in both stadiums that they played in. And I would say the highlight for me was 92 and 93 when they won back to back World Series. And Wright and Joe Carter touch them all. Joe, like that moment where you heard the announcement and it was just so powerful and I still remember where I was when I heard those words. And so it was so so cool. And like you, you know, just being able to play catch with my son or my daughter, you know, in the backyard or on the baseball diamond. There' special about it. I'm not going to go to field of dreams kind of mindset, but there's this sense of a rich. How would I say this? There's almost a fellowship. There's this beautiful community that takes place. And it's something that. I don't know unless you played and kind of dive into it a little bit, it's hard to understand. But I certainly feel it when I'm on the field, both playing with my kids or playing on a team like our team, or being present for those special moments. Moments and memories.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, it's. There's. There's just something about having that ball in the glove and throwing it back and forth. There's a camaraderie between the people playing and it's, you know, passed down one generation to the next. You know, like your. Your parent teaches you and then you teach your child. And there's. There's something. There's something about that that's. That's just a. Yeah. So great.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: It's so good. So, yeah. Putting the glove up to your nose and smelling it. Right. And. And then trying to. To throw a knuckleball. Right. Learning how to throw a knuckleball or a curveball. Those are. Those are cool moments. Of course, we'll never do it as well as some of the pros, but it's just so fun trying.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: It's so fun trying the efforts there. You're. You're making dreams of spring here, ron.
[00:09:00] Speaker A: I know, I know.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: All the gray snow. So that's. That's good.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: And here In Alberta, we're minus 25 today, so it's not going to happen today. Oh, this is so good. Friends, we got a ministry shout out we want to do today. And this is a ministry that both josh and I have been connected with over the years. It's a ministry that is part of the canadian CRC narrative, which is called the edmonton native healing center. The executive director there is a friend of mine, friend of ours, harold roche, and he's been doing some really, really good work trying to support, encourage, walk alongside our indigenous friends and just doing a really, really good job in the city of edmonton. So we just want to do that shout out to the edmonton native healing center to harold and the staff there that do such good work. Did you want to add anything, Josh?
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, No, I mean, what a great place.
I know during my time in Edmonton, I was able to take a group of students there to do some learning. And what an experience, a lot of hands on learning of learning about that native culture and what, what that means and yeah, what a, what a wonderful both ministry opportunity and service that they provide for that city of Edmonton there. So great job. Edmonton Native Healing center and Harold Roche, a huge shout out for sure.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: Kudos. Kudos.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So if you're listening for the first time or if you've been listening for a long time, we just want to remind you why we do this. We are connected to Generation Spark, but we want to remind you that if you're, if you're listening with us, our main focus is always to try to connect life ministry, the theorizer and the practitioner into an intergenerational conversation. So sometimes we're going to be talking about mentoring, sometimes we're going to be talking about baseball, sometimes we're talking about marvel or different things connected to life in some ways. But we're always going to be pointing to intergener conversations. So we're just so glad you're with us. And like I said earlier, Josh is joining us as co host for today's broadcast, but also guest. And one of the things that have always inspired me about Josh is his passion for intergenerational ministry. He served as a youth director, youth pastor, and now his title, I think, is a little bit different. So you can explain that to us in the church that you're serving now, but you've got a deep connection to all things youth ministry. And I thought today it would be a good day to kind of dive into, you know, we talk on previous episodes about different things that are kind of maybe theoretical or, you know, 3,000 foot view, things around intergenerational ministry. We want to kind of go to the grassroots a little bit. We want to go to the local church and we'd love to hear from you a little bit about some of the things that are working, some of the things are not working and maybe why it's important to you. But first of all, we want to begin with a background. Josh, tell us about who you are, your ministry and so on. So let's start with your background first. Josh, tell us about yourself.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, right now. So we'll kind of work there and then go back. So what I'm doing right now is I'm serving as what they're calling the pastor of faith formation at Water Street Church in Guelph, Ontario. And so that title is Very, very big. There's a lot of things that could fall under that. I'm overseeing a lot of the programming that happens at the church but also trying to infuse faith formative practices everywhere in the church, in every ministry area. So that goes from preaching to the programs that we run to the men's coffee in the morning and how do we infuse faith formative practices? So that's what I'm doing now. But what led me here were other roles that set me up to do this. So previous to this I served two other churches as their primary youth folks. So that was, I was one was in Edmonton and it's where Ron and I have deeply connected. So served at Covenant Christian Reformed Church there and then previous to that I was in Lethbridge, Alberta. So five hours south of where Edmonton is and I was in Lethbridge as a youth director doing youth emerging adults and kids ministry all together. And so those roles also shaped how I looked at faith, how I looked at the forming of faith in both kids, youth, young adults. And now that led me to here where I'm kind of looking over the whole continuum. So that's just a brief picture. I mean we could go on and on, I'm sure of different things but that's, that's what's led me here. Now serving as pastor of faith formation here at Water Street Church in Guelph.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: Let me just interrupt for a moment. This is really helpful. When you began at Maranatha you were still a pretty young youth pastor. Coming into that state and not saying that's a bad thing but obviously it drew you. Something drew you there and you saw the connections between the multi generations being a place of, of how do I say this a fertile place for community to be built. Right. So tell, tell me about that as a younger person coming into that. Why was that a good thing? Why did you see that as one a good place to do that and then to that intergenerational ministry could be a fertile ground there.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Boy, you know I, I saw it because of stuff even previous from that. So when my wife and I first got married we lived seven doors down from my grandparents and so that was just what a wonderful experience that was. So we would go down to my grandparents house, we would eat dinner with them probably two times a week at least. We always knew that if we came at a certain time, right before dinner they would eventually ask us if we just wanted to stay. So we planned our visits very strategically to get, to get free dinner which was always which was always wonderful for a newly married couple. But what we saw in that experience was how amazing it was to have their experience in life. My grandparents had at that point been long retired, and so they could go back to it. Life experiences that they had had throughout the years of many things that they had walked through, whether that be life in church, whether that be life just in general and what. And what they did. And we could share life together in a way that was so rewarding. Some of the most fun times, in fact, is when we would go down to their house and watch the television show the Bachelor, Bachelorette. I'm not advocating for these programs. These are. These are programs that you probably, by no means should you go and necessarily watch these programs. But that being said, it was a wonderful time where you would think that these folks who are in their 70s aren't going to watch this program that's obviously aimed at a younger audience. And yet here they were, and we were talking together about what was going on in the program, and that built this bond. And so then when I went to Lethbridge to Maranatha Christian Reformed Church and saw that there was a healthy amount of seniors at that church, folks who were 65 and older, I thought, there is such an opportunity here to continue to do ministry in the same way that we were doing life with my grandparents, to learn from that older generation, to shape the next generation's faith. And we could together have this amazing time together where we were learning about each other and where we were constantly reminded of God's faithfulness, both from what he was, what he did do in the past. And yet the young folks could bring a hope for the future. And so this balance of remembrance and hope was an amazing thing. Something that drew me there initially was that opportunity to do that and a thing that I've been looking for in churches ever since. And it, it, you know, there have been obviously challenges and different things along the way, but again, here in Guelph, we find the same thing. A senior heavy church. And, you know, some folks may look at that and go, oh, well, how could that be? You know, like, what's the future there? But there's so much good remembering there, which then informs the younger generation. They can push the older generation to hope. And I think, wow. I mean, the ministry opportunities that come from that, from, you know, I remember a youth student in Lethbridge who was a hockey player and said, oh, well, you know, I just want to connect with someone about hockey. And, you know, he could talk to me. But as we Went over earlier. I'm a baseball fan. Not as big of a hockey fan, which will be points against me for the Canadian folks that are listed. Oh, man.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: No judgment on this show. No judgment on this show.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: But that being said, so he was looking for someone, and it ended up that there was an older member who had played for the Netherlands national team in 1980. So it was part of that whole 1980 Lake Placid in New York for Americans, that was very important. That's the miracle on ice. It's the US Beating the Soviet Union. And they were able to have a conversation about, wow, what was that like playing in there? And he was able to share these times from hockey long ago. But yet this older man's experience was then, like, rejuvenated because he was now connecting with this younger kid who had this new experience of hockey. And wow, While it wasn't necessarily spiritual at first, it was the door that opened ways for them to get together and to create times together. So that was awesome.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: I love that you use the example of opening the doors for deeper perhaps and other conversations, because what I'm hearing you say, Josh, is that creating these connection points through shared experiences or shared things, loves or whatever, that could be baseball, hockey, movies, building something. Right? Those are all ways in which generations can come together for shared learning. I am curious, however, with that, how has that impacted you in terms of your own family life? You're married, you've mentioned that already, but you also referenced one of your children, but you have a number of children. And so it's really interesting because I think that that has an impact on their lives. Right? I mean, their connection to other people throughout the community and walking with them in faith is such an important part of this. This faith forming that you're talking about, Right? So tell me a little bit about that. How has that been impact on your family?
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Yeah, like on my. On my family personally. So, yeah, we mentioned my. My oldest son who would come and do. And would come and play on our softball team and participate that way. I have two other children with one more on the way, so we'll make four in total. But for my. For my other kids, so I have another son and then a younger daughter for. For them, what's been awesome to be part of communities like this is for them to have opportunities that maybe they wouldn't before. So, you know, for them to be able to come up front at a church service. And right now, at the church I'm at, we send the kids out about halfway through the service. To do, you know, a Sunday school children in worship type of thing. And they have a. They have a banner that they carry out. And so they, they carry out that banner every week. And it's great. And it's this symbolism of Christ going with them as they go into their spot of worship. But what's really neat about that is not even the banner itself, but it's the fact that one of our members here is sure every time to snap a picture of them walking out with that banner. And the first few times I thought, what in the world? Like, what is this person doing? Like, are they taking these pictures for the website? You know, so that we look like a church that's, you know, has young kids and boy, we can include everyone and that's going to look great on the Internet. But really what it, what it turned into was he would take those pictures and then he would go back to my kids and the other kids that were carrying this banner out, and he'd show them and he'd say, oh, look it, there you are, carrying the banner. And when they saw themselves do that, they then found themselves being more active participants in worship than before. When they saw that picture before, they were also active participants. They were doing it. But when they saw it and when they saw that someone cared enough to take their picture and to say, look at what you are doing, all of the sudden their perspective now changes of, wow, I'm not just doing this because this is what I do. I'm doing this because I'm part of the bigger picture of what's going on here at Water Street Church. And that, to me, is a beautiful thing that's happened with my kids. I also love the fact that when there's teachers that are there in Sunday school that they can teach the kids and then they can ask the kids later, hey, how did you. What did you learn today? And, you know, I could keep going on the countless ways in which that happens. You know, we also have snacks after church, as maybe a lot of churches do. You know, you have a little snack after worship. You have juice or lemonade or coffee. And then sometimes there's donut holes or Timbits, if you're Canadian. And so you have these little treats afterwards. And a lot of times here at Water street, those treats were kept in a certain area. And that area was kind of for seniors only. And the kids started noticing, hey, there's donuts over there. I wonder if I could get my paws on some of those. Which I was thinking the same thing. I just don't express that, you know, I mean, I. I would like to think I had a little bit more self control, but, you know, like, you're. You're always thinking that. And so these kids are thinking, how do I get to these donuts? And we thought, hey, wait a minute, you know, we could just make it easy and just put the donuts out for everyone. And, yeah, that would be an inclusive way to do it. And maybe we still should do that, but we thought, what would it look like to actually have the kids go up and ask the seniors for the donuts? It's not like that. They're just out so they can grab a mittful and then run back to their spot. They now have to actively go talk to a senior member who has these donut holes on the table, and they have to get them that way. And to me, that created some beautiful conversation where it forced both child and senior to now connect, to talk, to say, hey, how was your week? Oh, you'd like this donut. You like that flavor? So do I. And that goes again, to the connection, not necessarily in and of itself spiritual, but it leads to those deeper discussions down the road. And so we're planting these seeds so that they can be sown, watered, taken care of, and then grow into lifelong faith practices. And that's.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that example when you were describing the gentleman taking the pictures and then showing them and again reminding them of their contributions to worship. I was reminded of the photo that I took with your son Rory, when we both wore vests that one Sunday. I was preaching and we were doing a greeting and everybody. And he came up to me and says, we're twins. And so I took the picture during the service selfie, the two of us, and I still have it. And I love that photo because again, I think it just. It's a great reminder of. Of just being a participant instead of just a maybe somebody who wouldn't fully engage. Right. And so I love that. I love that.
So food is really interesting, right? You brought up the timbits of the cake and those kind of things. I was part of a youth service one Sunday evening, and we did kind of a welcome thing kind of similar to that, but we did it with a whole congregation. There were young people, and we were trying to find a way to just see if they could engage with one another. Right. And so I did this introduction to them. I said, okay, here's what I'd like you to do. I want you to go find somebody you don't know or just barely know and ask them what's your favorite thing that you put on toast? Right. I mean, toast is kind of an everyday thing, right? Me, for me, it's. It's gently buttered and then you put some peanut butter on top. And it's just beautiful how it just melts into the right. Or a piece of cheese and just kind of melts over the edges. Right. And those kind of things. But it was really interesting how. How they just wanted to share some of these things. It was fascinating. But, you know, just creating opportunities for them to engage and food is often a way. A great way of being able to. To do that with the various generations. It seems to be the. The. The field leveler, if you will.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I would also think that food, to an. To an extent, there's somewhat. Some biblical background to that too. You know, whenever. When, you know, there's a lot of meal sharing that goes on. We see this a lot in the New Testament too, of meal sharing going on. You know, I think of the story of, you know, Jesus having breakfast with the disciples on the beach following his resurrection. I think, like, that's a. It's a wonderful story about gathering around food. But a lot of that culture, too, was around that. Food was around, like, that Passover meal, too, which symbolized a lot of remembering as well for the people of Israel. And, you know, so I think. I think, yeah, food has this way of, you know, both satisfying our physical hunger and sustaining us and helping us have energy. But there's also this spiritual element to it where it also fills us in that spiritual sense. You know, I think of the line from the Lord's Prayer of give us this day our daily bread. And while that can be a simple ask and a simple.
A simple request, I think that there's also some real holiness there to what's happening that. That the daily bread is. Yes, the sustained food that we get that sustains us each day, but it's also this. This idea that. That God is filling us and. And what a better time to do that than around a meal together, connecting to sharing God's faithfulness. So, yeah, food has a wonderful way of connecting, and it fills us up physically, but I think there's also this wonderful spiritual element to it that is. That's just wonderful.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: Kara Powell talks about this in Sticky Faith. I believe it's Sticky Faith where she says, what would it look like for us to eliminate the kids table? Right. And so, you know, because that's what happens when we have the large dinners and then we have the kids table, but then they're not fully engaged with the larger group. Right. And so I wonder sometimes if there's some truth to that, that, you know, what would it look like for us to get rid of the kids table? I know for our family, we don't have a kids table. We just have a table. Right. And so we've got the four generations. When we come together for special meals with my parents, all the way down to their great grandchildren, we are just fully immersed together. And it's beautiful. And the chaos is lovely. It is so, so beautiful.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:29:22] Speaker A: Because it isn't. It isn't just clean and orderly and structured. It's just stuff, and it's life.
[00:29:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: And I think that's important. I think my observations, you know, especially when we think about life in the church, although we. We would prefer orderly and function, I think Jesus actually says, no, no, we're called to minister in the messy. Right. And the messy is often those places where the children are loud during the service or. Right. It's. It's feels disruptive sometimes.
And I'm often reminded. I'm going to go back to, you know, our previous episode with, you know, talking about life together. You know, it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It says that sometimes in the midst of our journeys and particularly around this place of community building, that God often interrupts us in that space. Right. And it's not always perfectly aligned and. Right. There's.
And I wonder if sometimes we as communities so desire the numbers and the structure and the orderly that we kind of forget that sometimes the messiness is part of that intergenerational space.
Listening to the baby crying or wrestling in the pews. You know, I just wonder that sometimes. Josh. I'm not saying that's the answer for every context, but. But I do wonder sometimes if we.
Yeah. We need to rethink things a little bit when it comes to life together in an intergenerational space.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think you're onto something there of. Yeah, maybe we rethink a little bit. And, you know, the thing is, you know, on a practical level, and I think about this being in the local church, you know, there's such a practical level here of that balance of living in that. That real messy and having that orderly. You know, there. There's. There is something great about having order and having a service that's well put together and that works all together. And there's also beauty in the child screaming or playing instruments as loud as they can. You know, I mean, we Just had that this, this past week in worship here, where we handed out musical instruments before the worship service and many kids took these little, you know, classroom instruments and were banging around on them. Was it completely thought through of how loud that would actually be? Probably not.
I mean, I mean, you know, it was, it was great. But you know, you know, you're, you're singing a song of, you know, confession or something like that, and then a child is just banging the maracas about as loud as they can go or shaking those maracas as loud as they can go. You think, ah, does this really fit? And, you know, maybe, maybe not, but maybe that's where there's some grace in there. And it's just this, it's just this balance. And it's always hard to find in that practicality of doing worship on the ground and being in a, in a local church of where that balance is. But I think, I think to probably lean more into the messy is probably, probably the way to go, because it is going to get messy. You're going to have kids that do stuff. And it's not just kids either. I mean, let's face it. I mean, people, you know, of all ages and of all backgrounds do crazy things during worship sometimes, and that's okay. And it's finding that balance. And where, where, where can we find God in that messiness? That's, that's my big thing. So.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and it's interesting. I don't even think the messiness is just from the feeling of disruption in things, but it could very well be somebody who is just wrestling with something, right? And they haven't been given the space or maybe somebody just hasn't reached out to them in a while and they haven't felt. Heard that that again, is messy. Right. And so many members in our congregation maybe feeling those disruptive moments within their lives that I think, are we, are we being attentive to that, both young and old, middle aged and, and so on. I wonder if, if us, and I mean us, I mean just maybe the church paying attention and maybe being self, aware, right? What's, what's going on in the, in the groundswell of, of, you know, the, the people that, that are tending or are the church. I should say that because it's not the building that's the church, it's the people that's the church. And so when, when, right, when, so when there's stuff going on in the body, we all feel the effects of that. And so I think that's the beauty of the Body, but also, you know, things will not always look perfect or be perfect, not until Christ returns. And so recognizing that we need to live in that messy state and express and, you know, compassion and love and a willingness to listen through our differences and challenges. And I wonder, maybe it's broader than the church too. Maybe even in our world today. We are so. It feels so messy right now, Josh, that I wonder if there's something there for us too, right? That in, in the messiness that, that we extend grace and compassion to the other. I believe that's, that's what Jesus taught us to be and do. Right. We don't have to look too far to even see that. We look at the Beatitudes, right?
Blessed are the, the poor in spirit, blessed are the meek, right? And so on. Jesus was reminding us that that's who we are in, in a Christian body. And then going to Acts chapter six, where, you know, Jesus is, is no longer on earth, but the, the apostles are, the disciples are dealing with this stuff that's going on. And all of a sudden, you know, the Greek speaking widows are being overlooked in the daily distribution of bread. That's not a good thing, right? So, so something had to change and so they were responsive to that. I wonder, Josh, sometimes if, if this is, this is our moment to start thinking what needs to change, that we can be this, these people, the body that reflects hospitality in ways that are compassionate, graceful and encouraging and intergenerational. Recognizing that life isn't always perfect and may not be until Christ comes again.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen to that. Perfectly said. Love it.
[00:36:12] Speaker A: Are there any other things that you're thinking about when you think about the local church? You know, you've expressed some examples to the listeners about, you know, the lived out experience of intergenerational ministry. But if you were to succinctly define it, maybe tell us about why you believe intergenerational ministry is important for the local church.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Oh, I mean, yeah, intergenerational ministry, it's vital. Like, I think it's, you know, I think, I think it's one of these things that if, when you, when you just have too much of one of one view or one group of age of people, whatever it may be, you get skewed in certain directions that maybe you don't want to go or you become an echo chamber to some degree of. You just hear the same things over and over. And this isn't just necessarily, oh, you're just an old church or any of that. This, this also can be churches that have all families and there's no one who's a senior. And so to me, it's so valuable for forming of the faith for everybody. Everybody's faith is formed in an intergenerational community. And you know, for the local church person thinking like, oh, well, I have to do these things or there's a, you know, 12 step program to making my church intergenerational. You know, I'm not going to sit here and say that there's a silver bullet for these things. There's just, there's, there's not. But what we can do is we can, like you mentioned, love each other, well, show compassion. And you know, also thinking about when we do have these intergenerational communities is not putting so much pressure on these things to make them feel like, oh, we have to do this or we won't succeed. It's vital, but we can't force feed it either. You know, I've seen so many churches that have mottos like let's do life together and I think that is a beautiful thing or we're a church family even. I've been thinking a lot about this lately of this church family idea and boy, I do love it. But so many people come in with baggage of what a family could mean. You know, boy, what happens when you come from a real broken family? And then we say, hey, be a part of this church family. What is, what is what, what feelings does that evoke in somebody that could be actually more harmful to community than helpful? And so in thinking about what intergenerational looks like, it's finding those moments that you can take that are very practical moments. From someone snapping a picture of someone walking down with a banner to a practical moment of, you know, I mean, I've used these now that the donut holes thing as well. It's finding those practical moments and then being able to have, you know, in your church to be able to kind of change that culture to say, okay, instead of just looking at these moments of just things that happen, we are looking for how God is moving in those moments among his people. And when we have our eyes open to God. After all, I mean, at the time of recording this, we're sitting here in the season of epiphany, which is all about having your eyes opened to what God is doing and what Christ has already done. And to me that's what makes intergenerational ministry work in church is when we're all have our eyes open to what God is doing and so we can say, oh my word, did you see God in this moment? I love in vacation Bible schools when they have a little moment. And I had this a number of years ago, running vacation Bible school, where there was one moment in which they challenged the groups. You know, I said, okay, we're gonna have God sightings. So say a moment where you saw God today. And it was so funny. The leaders were the ones who had the hard time doing it, but it was the kids who came then and said, oh, well, I saw God when the leader smiled at me today.
I would never think of that moment necessarily as intergenerational or wow. We set up this program so that we could do this. No, it was that simple act, that simple faith practice of kindness that then spurred on this kid to say, I see God in that. And wow. I mean, when you see that kind of stuff, to me, those are the small things where it doesn't have to be a big program. It doesn't have to be, you know, we're running an intergenerational, you know, meal every, every other month, and we have people come in. It can be these things that may work in the context in which people are at, but I like to find those moments that are, that are small moments, everyday moments in a sense, that can turn our eyes to what God's doing and in turn, shape and form all of our faiths. And that, to me, is so important for churches to be aware of and to know and to practice. And when you practice, that's when you get good at it. We talk, we started this whole conversation talking about baseball. Baseball is only, you know, you can, you could, you can love baseball all you want, play all you want, but if you don't practice, you know, it's not going to be any good. You got to keep practicing these things, find those moments, practice looking for God. And that's when you start seeing them show up. Your eyes start to be opened just as they were for many people that we see through the Bible from Moses to King David to Paul in the New Testament. That's. Yeah, that's it right there to me.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: And that's fascinating. As you were describing those moments as well as those historical people from scripture. I'm immediately drawn to the fact as you start to unpack who they are, they had people walking with them in faith, mentors walking alongsiders, people who held them accountable, but also just journeyed with them through the peaks and the valleys of life. And I think that's such a vital piece of this, right? When we think about the elderly, children, middle aged, whatever you know, it's often impacted by Christ centered relationships and relationships that just pour the love out to each other in ways that help them to become an iron sharpening iron time together. And that's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that because I think that just really touched on something that we hadn't said yet but needed to be said.
Josh, you're a guy that sometimes loves to read and you've got sometimes some resources that you will go to from time to time. I know we at Generation Spark often share resources with churches and I know you've come to one of our in person events and, and you've kind of seen and heard some of the stuff that we offer. But what other resources have you encountered or maybe, maybe not completely taken in or completely dove into that you think the listeners might like to hear about?
[00:43:44] Speaker B: Absolutely, Ron. You know, first things first, as you mentioned, I did come to one of these Generation Spark events and for, for the listeners, this is, and I know we already did our ministry shout out, but Generation Spark is what this podcast is for. And being a guest on here today, it is a wonderful resource. Generation Spark has so many resources available to them and with this joint effort between the Reformed Church of America and the Christian Reformed Church coming together, it's a wonderful thing. So if you're on the fence and wondering about these things, you got to reach out to this team. They're wonderful folks and they'll help you along. So shout out to Generation Spark for that.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: Thanks for that, Josh. Appreciate it.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: Of course, of course, of course. Now, as for some other resources, if you say, hey, you know, like Generation Spark, I'm not sure, but, you know, you still want to kind of dip your toes into what this could look like in your local context.
I just picked up this book and I, and I read a quote from it in an article from one of our friends and your former colleague Mimi Larson, who wrote on Christianity Today.
[00:44:53] Speaker A: Oh, Mimi.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: I mean, you know, we're shouting out people left and right here, but Mimi Larson, shout out to her and the work and the work she's doing now. Wonderful. And so she wrote an article along with a few other collaborators, and I don't have their names, so you'll have to forgive me for that. But she wrote this article for Christianity Today and they quoted a book called Faithful Creating Sacred Moments at Home. And this is by Tracy Smith. This book is a very practical thing of looking at how to create the everyday moments and making them sacred. So this kind of goes back to, you know, having your eyes open to where God is each day. And so it gives very practical examples to do through the various seasons of church. So, I mean, for instance, here I'm just on a page in this book about Thanksgiving, and it talks about making a gratitude tree. And so I think that it's a very helpful resource to be thinking about everyday moments and how to make them sacred. And that becomes in a family unit, you can do this, which is also we can think about a family unit as intergenerational, as kids and parents, but also in a communal effort as well, if you're in a church. So I'd say that that is a. That is a wonderful resource for sure. I mean, I. I deeply appreciate Tracy Smith's work in that book, and I loved Mimi's article on Christianity Today. You know, the other thing that is interesting and can spark some conversation is another book called Blessed Are the Undone by Peter Sherman. And Angela writes from a bic. Angela is the editor or yeah. For Christian Courier. She is wonderful. And Peter Sherman is actually my neighbor.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: I did not know that. I didn't know he was that close to you. That's awesome.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Peter.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: Peter.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Peter Sherman is my neighbor. So I just.
[00:46:52] Speaker A: Names everywhere, man names everywhere.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: It's named everywhere. But Peter and Angela in this book talk about the deconstruction movement that has been happening worldwide, but they specifically hone in on the Canadian side of things. You may say, well, how does this connect with mentoring and intergenerational and this kind of thing? I think this is helpful to this Blessed Are the Undone book. It's helpful to understand the perspective of those who are sitting in our pews, both actually physically and maybe in a more theoretical sense, that are sitting in our pews to hear what their faith journey has been and why maybe they have walked away from the faith or maybe why are they deconstructing? And then in turn, how do we as a church walk alongside them in reconstructing their faith? And this isn't like a, oh, you've been horrible for deconstructing your faith. After all, in Ecclesiastes 3, there is a time for everything, a time to tear down and a time to rebuild. And so how do we walk alongside them? Well, and so. So this book, Blessed Are the Undone, Angela Bick and Peter Sherman, really great in understanding the stories of what's happening in our pews with both young adults and people of all ages, in fact, across the board and in a Canadian context. So it's interesting for anyone to read that. But I would say right now, those Two resources stand out to me in recent things that have come across my desk and I've read and enjoyed and interacted with.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: I'm almost thinking now, as you described the last book, particularly wondering if we should. We should get Peter on the. On an episode and just kind of go through the book because I think there's something to this. Right. This is important for the life of the church moving forward, you know, as we start thinking about this. And this was a conversation, the deconstruction and reconstruction conversation that came up in an event I was leading as well this past weekend. So it may be worthwhile diving into that. So thank you for recommending that. I do have that book at home as well, and so, yeah, glad that we can share that resource as well. Josh, thank you so much for being on this particular episode. This has been great.
[00:49:21] Speaker B: Ron, for those of you. And pleasure.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you and I have done things like this before in different ways, but I mean, doing it on this Generation Spark podcast, I'm just so grateful. And if you're willing, you know, I'd love to have you back sometime if that would work out.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: It was a pleasure to join you. Glad I could pinch it, you know, to continue our baseball theme. There you go. Well, I love that you weren't bumping here to bring this fully back.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: You know, the pinch hit for John today. You know, I'm happy to do it. I enjoy, enjoy listening to this when, when you and John are on and inviting in your various guests. And so, yeah, just thanks for the opportunity to come on today. It's a privilege and an honor to, to join you and to, to reconnect as, as friends as well. You know, sometimes, you know, you can do other podcasts and I have, and you know, you're on that. You don't really know the other folks, but to know the person on the other side of the screen or on the microphone in this case, it's just wonderful. And love having these conversations. They're so uplifting for myself and I hope that they're uplifting for the listener too, like this. I hope that it encourages you as the listener at home or wherever you are to say, huh, to kind of give a rethink about where, where things are in your local church or where you're at in your faith journey and to maybe, you know, think about what is. What does this look like for me? And, and I, I hope, I hope that it is. I hope that it's as edifying for their ears as it's been for for my soul today. So it's been great. Yeah.
[00:50:51] Speaker A: Josh, I love it. Love working with you, man. This is so fun. And listeners, those, those recommendations, those resources that we've talked about, we're going to be putting them in the speaker notes, so you can certainly pull them out that way. Josh, again, it's been wonderful working with you. And for all the rest of you, until next time, it's been a pleasure being with you. Talk to you later.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: Bye.
