On Bonhoeffer, Life Together

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi everybody. Welcome to the Spark Dialogue podcast, a podcast through Generation Spark. My name is John Simon and I'm here with Ron DeFries. [00:00:12] Speaker B: Hey, John, good to see you again. Good to be with you again. [00:00:16] Speaker A: Always. Always. Good to see. Good to be. Just. Yeah. Good for the two of us to. To start. Just clank some mics together, you know, just get back on the road. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I was looking at our episodes so far and this is number 10 for us. [00:00:33] Speaker A: No way. Are you serious? [00:00:34] Speaker B: Bit of an anniversary. Bit of an anniversary. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Huge. [00:00:37] Speaker B: That's what I thought. [00:00:39] Speaker A: I'm even happier now because I feel like what we're talking about just fits. Like, I feel like this is a big enough thing to fit our 10th anniversary. [00:00:48] Speaker B: I think so too. And it was interesting because I was looking at number one and we began that one kind of looking at this idea of belonging and we actually named that one Life Together. And so it's fast fascinating how this one kind of comes back for us. And so I think it's very appropriate for this. [00:01:02] Speaker A: We were foreshadowing and didn't even realize it. And that's just, that's a, that's a, that's a cool thing. That's a God thing, you know, Shout out to the Lord as always. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Amen. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Ron, I. I wanna, I wanna break the ice a little bit with you. I had this thought when I was eating my pre dinner snack, so I want to throw a few things at you. Listener Ron has no idea what I'm gonna throw at him. So this is nothing. This is completely organic. There's nothing, nothing fabricated here. [00:01:29] Speaker B: The very fact that you called it a pre dinner snack already makes me fall in love more with you. Because that to me is just the right thing to do at this time of day. [00:01:38] Speaker A: I just. My lunch was. Was much smaller than I anticipated and I got home and I had some. I had a snack. So anyway, so we're going to get into this. [00:01:45] Speaker B: So let's do it. [00:01:46] Speaker A: I want you to, I want you to rate these as underrated or overrated. And I will, I will allow you to give something rated if you think it's fairly perceived. [00:01:56] Speaker B: So underrated or overrated. Got it. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. And then you share why or you can keep it tight lipped. You don't have to say a word if you don't want to love it. The first one, again inspired by my snack, was putting grapes in the freezer. Oh, yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker B: I've never done that before. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Okay. [00:02:16] Speaker B: But I can certainly see that that could be a delicious snack. Like, I've thrown chocolate in the freezer and eaten that, and that's amazing. And so grapes in the freezer, I would say, based on my understanding of it and not having done it, I would say that's very underrated right now. So I would like to do that. So underrated. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Okay. All right. That's good. That's good. Next. I was kind of torn about this one. Andrew Garfield's Spider Man. [00:02:49] Speaker B: Now we're talking. My language, man. Oh, my goodness. [00:02:53] Speaker A: For clarity, not the movie themselves, just his portrayal. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Right, right. So when Amazing Spider Man. And I just got to clarify for the listeners, right. There's been three iterations. Three versions of the web slinger. The first one by Tobey Maguire in. Let me just say in these movies, I would say before that there were other. But the ones that kind of leaned into the 2000s, let me say that the year 2000. So Tobey Maguire came on, and it was an interesting version of Peter Parker. And then Andrew Garfield in the Amazing Spider Man 2 movie series came in and came in with a slightly different mindset, a different version of Peter that I think I actually became more accustomed to from the comic books originally. And then, of course, Tom Holland came in when Marvel seemed to envelop the spider verse into their network of movies. So I will say Andrew Garfield's version, in my mind, is underrated. I think he did a really good job with it, and I'm quite happy with what he did with it. The storyline was also good, but that's another conversation for another day. So I would say it was a little bit underrated. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, Ron, we talk so much about giving youth a place in the community around us. I feel like we need to just knock out an episode about Spider man because so much of his story is being young in a. In a much bigger, much more complicated and confusing world. So I think we should do that. We'll. We'll. We'll roll that up the chain of command, I think. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Let's do that. I think 2025 is a long enough year that we can probably throw one of those in there. [00:04:40] Speaker A: I think so. Yeah. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:42] Speaker A: And then our last one, taking cold showers. [00:04:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Overrated. Okay. Let me just say that. No, I. Well, again, living in the climate that we do doesn't happen very often. Having said that, doing some mission work in Central America, it was the norm, right? It was the norm, and it was totally refreshing. Then I'm going to leave that one kind of in the middle. It depends on your context. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. All right. [00:05:10] Speaker B: Is that fair? [00:05:11] Speaker A: I think that's very fair. That's very fair. You did a great job, Ron. That was good. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, that was fun. That was fun. [00:05:17] Speaker A: All right, do we have a ministry shout out for today? [00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Going to go back to an interview we did a little while ago with Hannah Evans, and she's with Springtide Research. This is an organization that's been looking into a lot of intergenerational ministry initiatives, but also the implications of intergenerational ministry for the church. When Hannah interviewed us first, Ruth and I, and then we interviewed her on our podcast, it was really clear that there was a lot of good synergistic opportunities with the work that we're doing here at Generation Spark, but also for the church just to really get a good handle on why this is important. And their work has been, I would say, top notch. It's been really, really helpful for the local congregations to dive into and for us as denominational leaders, John, as we think about the work that we're doing with Generation Spark, recognizing that it's just so, so beneficial to learn more about why this is important and how this can benefit the local church. So a shout out to Hannah Evans and the team Springtide Research. They've been just doing a really good job. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, now. Now we get to the moment that we've all been waiting for. We get to introduce our topic for today, which is the book Life Together by the esteemed, the renowned Dietrich Bonhoeffer. We've been talking about this one for a while. [00:06:48] Speaker B: We have. My connection to this book probably goes back about a decade, so I know it's a much older book than that, but when I was doing some mission planning work with an organization called Therefore Go Ministries, one of the things we recognized as we were planning for the season, we were writing curriculum for it. Our theme for that year happened to be authentic community. And it was a beautiful theme and we had great T shirts that went along with that. But in preparation for that serve season, that short term mission season, we all read the book together, Life Together. And it was really interesting how that kind of just jump started our thinking around what it means to be authentic community. And there are some things in this as old as the book is taking us right back almost, well, 90 years. [00:07:43] Speaker A: Wow. [00:07:44] Speaker B: 80. 90 years. Right? When the book or when he would have been writing some of this stuff, the implications for today as well, when it comes to ministry, when it comes to, you know, Christian communities together. I would also say leadership. There's some leadership, significant things in this book that I think are really, really important for us. And for me, it became real again. And I'm not sure if you've watched the movie, but the movie Bonhoeffer came out a little while ago in theaters, and Monique and I, my wife and I went to go see it and it just came to life. Some of his own life experiences that made the book just kind of become more real for me as I thought about his own life. Yeah. And I'm sure there was some. [00:08:33] Speaker A: I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure if I, like, felt grat. But you seem like it really had an impact on you. [00:08:39] Speaker B: It did. There were some things in the movie that I thought, oh, they've certainly done some creative license here. And again, we didn't live in that space, but I certainly sensed that. But there were some things, particularly near the end of the movie that really made me realize, huh, there's something here about his sense of community that was starting to bubble up to the surface and I thought was very powerful. I'll probably share a little bit more later, but we've got some stuff in the book that we wanted to pull out for conversation today. [00:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer is such an interesting guy because for any of our listeners who that name may not ring a bell for, he's maybe most well known for being a pastor in Germany during the mid 20th century when, of course, the Nazi regime kind of took over. And many, I'd say predominantly the church in Germany would turn to be either kind of apathetic towards the Nazis or downright supportive of them. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer is probably best known for being one of the most vocally opposed to Hitler and to the Nazis. And then kind of had this interesting. He, he came to America for a period of time, kind of got, got offered a job to teach at a seminary. Was it Union Seminary, Ron? [00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. In. In New York, I want to say. And then kind of felt the Holy Spirit tugging him to go back to Germany because he realized, I need to be with my people during this time of like, great darkness and to try to bring the light of Christ here. And he ended up being martyred as a result of it. But as. As incredible as Dietrich Bonhoeffer's like, biography is, it can almost cast a shadow over the fact that he had some really incredible writings. Like, the Cost of Discipleship is probably his most well known text, which is a very Very popular text as far as 20th century Christian classics go. But probably the little brother text to the cost of discipleship is what we're going to talk about today, which is his book, Life Together. But it is really interesting to consider that everything he was writing was in some way touched by these experiences, which we would consider very, very unique to be literally a 20th century martyr in the Christian world. Certainly something that, you know, very, very interesting and how that would affect how he, how he writes these things. But yeah, let's jump in, Ron. [00:11:13] Speaker B: There's. The book is. It's a small read, a short read, 122 pages, very, very tiny book. Some people may say I've seen smaller books, but for this one here, I sense it as a bit of a small book, but it's broken out into a number of chapters. Not, not a ton. Starts with community, the day with others, the day alone, ministry, confession and communion. And we're going to be picking out a few talking points that John and I both really resonated with. And I'll begin with one that I found that I think John, you and I can begin our conversation with. And it's this one here. It's under the section of Community. And he Sundays on page 21. And if you're following along, if you have the book, that's great, but it's the middle paragraph and it says Christianity means community through Jesus Christ. And in Jesus Christ, no Christian community is more or less than this. Whether it be a brief single encounter or the daily fellowship of years. Christian community is only this. We belong to one another through and in Jesus Christ. And what does this mean? Well, it means first, that a Christian needs others because of Jesus Christ. And it means, second, that a Christian comes to others only through Jesus Christ. And it means third, that in Jesus Christ we've been chosen from eternity, accepted in time and united for eternity. Now, there's a lot here in this, but one of the things that just really touched me is this, the central core of Jesus Christ, this idea that we are united not by any other thing, but by our Savior, our Lord, the Son of God. And the depth to which that in itself is the bridge for us to Christian community, to community together can't be overlooked. It can't be overlooked. And it's necessary for us as we think about walking in faith together. Right. We're drawn together because of that central core of who Jesus is and what he did for us. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think that later on page 22, he goes on to kind of talk about how Human beings are inherently pointed outward so that the Word would come to like, into them. And I think that's just like, there's always this contingency of the faith of people who have had either disappointing or even traumatic experiences in community. And they kind of have this personalized sense of, like, I have my relationship with the Lord, you know, I experience him on a daily basis, but I don't. I don't need the church. I don't need the community. And this is by no means meant to shame or invalidate their experiences or their feelings, but it is to just draw this attention to this inner realization of, like, man. Like, as people, we are constantly just reaching outward. We're constantly aware of a need that something would come to. To us, just as Christ came to us. And so realizing that, yeah, we were not meant to be like islands, we were not meant to be kind of marooned, but we were actually made for Christian community. And what I love is Bonhoeffer does say a lot like, that doesn't mean that we're meant for perfect community. It doesn't mean that it's going to be a pleasant time always, but that the. The value and the gratitude that we can find in being in community is a gift that we would be. You know, it'd be a real bummer if we declined that gift. [00:15:04] Speaker B: I wonder. And this is in no way comparing the realities of what we went through in 20, 20, 2021 and 2022 with the lockdowns, but it seems to me when I envision Bonhoeffer going through what he did, being imprisoned when he was, that that sense of aloneness emerged for him. And that desire for Christian brothers and sisters to be in commune with must. Have. He must have wrestled with that and missed that, longed for that as he, you know, was locked up. And I know, like I said, I can't compare the two realities because they're not the same. And anybody listening to me, I am not comparing it that way, but I will say this, that in my experience, going through, being locked down, it felt dreadfully alone. And for some of the young adults that I know in the world and some who my own children, they were going through what they were going through in this space. How we just longed to be together and to find ways to be able to do that and be creative with that. We were gifted that we might be able to do that in some ways, you could do it safely, we were told. Still wasn't the same. And I wonder if a little bit of that is sneaking into our conversation Today I wonder how many churches people, members had experienced that aloneness and just really, really craved being together with somebody else. Even though they may have been maybe somewhat introverted. Right. And they wanted to be alone for a little while, but they realize, no, no, that gap you were talking about starts showing up so deeply for them and they say, no, no, no, no, no, I need to be around others. Which is what I think Christ and God intended for us to be is in community together. [00:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think of the passage that you often hear in the context of like this is why you need to get married, like the, the man was not meant to be alone passage, I think that's just scratching the surface. I think that what it's implying is that the human being filled with the, the breath and the spirit of God was not meant to like, was made and built for these types of like intimate, honest, loving, self sacrificial relationships like that we were made for the community that we would be to. And yeah, I think Bonhoeffer really gives us a really beautiful picture of that in this book. [00:17:51] Speaker B: Is there anything that shows up in these couple of sections that you would say, what does the church need to pay attention to in this? So one thing that jumps out to. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Me. [00:18:08] Speaker B: I had the privilege of spending some time with churches recently and one of the things we're talking about is this sense of hospitality and this idea that as Jesus cared for the marginalized, as Jesus cared for those who maybe perhaps felt like they had no space, you know, no opportunities for perhaps that sense of Christian community, like they didn't belong. We used that word before as well. And someone brought up this idea, if we are truly to be churches that display hospitality. But there's a lot of people who can't show up, who aren't able to show up to a church service to be in community, what do we do with that? Because I mean there's a lot of people who may feel like they're away, maybe they're bedridden, maybe they're ill, and yet they're still. We have the technology now to bring them alongside and watch a service, if you will. But that's just a small part of it, right? That's just a two dimensional opportunity to connect for an hour or an hour and a half, depending on how long our services are or maybe three hours, who knows? But Christian community needs to be more than that. Right? And if we think about worship specifically, how do we create space for that to happen in our church settings, especially when some of these people are desiring it, but not able to experience it because of infirmary or whatever that may look like. And so how do we deal with that? Like, it's just a question. I'm wondering with John. I have no idea if there's an answer connected to this, but I do think it's deeply connected to this sense of community in Jesus Christ, of course. And it's something that, as I watch people get a little older in my life, you say, okay, how do we bridge that gap? Because they're desiring it as well. [00:20:09] Speaker A: Yeah. One of the passages that I, that I shared with you earlier, Ron, was I'll read it now. It's at the bottom of page 30. For everyone who's following along at home. It says that Christian brotherhood is not an ideal which we must realize. It is rather a reality created by God in Christ in which we may participate. And so I think that, I mean, I, what you said, Ron, really resonates with me because as I think I've shared before on the, on the show, I, I work as a hospice chaplain in a predominantly kind of a retirement community south of the, of the city that I live in. And so I've heard the story many, many times of families who would move to this small town, kind of on the outskirts, they would like, well into their retirement age, they would start going to a church that's probably, I don't know, 500 or larger. And then as older people tend to do, they would get sick and then their illness would start to mess with their ability to go, to go to church. And so their connection is lost. And oftentimes, yeah, they're going to play the sermons on a Bluetooth radio or they're going to watch the live stream, but that's not church and that's not the community and the intimacy that we were made for. And that longing is definitely still there. And especially you think like an old person that's now become a shut in who is now experiencing worse and worse physical illness. That person really should have the kindness and nearness of Christ brought to them. They should not feel as discarded as they often might. And so for me, I almost think like when I look at a passage like this one and it's essentially like Christian brotherhood isn't what we're trying to make it, it just is. Which means that if our dream of church is a bunch of people who fit the same kind of cultural background, who are roughly the same age, who can easily talk about football and politics and never disagree and always have a great time, and everyone brings all the best food to the potluck. Like, that sounds great, but what happens when brotherhood means someone who's really awkward shows up or someone who requires a lot of love and patience and compassion shows up? Like, I think it's like the first step is realizing that our ideal of what the church should look like is not the church. It's just an ideal. It's just a projection. The question we need to ask is, who is. Who are the people that were called to shepherd right now? And what does that look like? And beyond the services that I can put on and beyond the comfort zone that I find myself in, where is God going to stretch me to make sure that each sheep is taken care of by their shepherd? So, yeah, I don't know. There's something in that. [00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I so appreciate you articulating it that way because immediately, as you were describing the first description of the group, it felt like, oh, what we're talking about is a club, a club where everybody kind of gets along. A baseball team or a hockey or team of some sort. Right. We're kind of in this together. We've all got the same kind of physicalness to be able to do these things, but there's no room for the other. You can watch from the sidelines. Right. That's not what Christian community is talking about, especially not in what Diedrich is talking about in this book particularly. And I think what you're describing is something that. And maybe we wrestle with this quite a bit. What you're saying is it takes hard work, and the hard work isn't necessarily something that comes easy for us because we, too, are trying to be enveloped in a Christian community to support each other. I'm not sure if I have the capacity for that, but yet there are some that do. So this hard work, it isn't easy, but I think it's something we're called to be and do. It's stretching the boundaries of what you described. It's stretching us in ways. And I believe when we are stretched by the power of the Holy Spirit, stretched in the work that we are called to do as brothers and sisters in Christ, that actually gives us strength to live into that new reality of being hospitable disciplers in and around those within our communities. Yeah, but it's not easy. It's not easy. If it was easy, then everybody would be doing it, right? [00:25:02] Speaker A: I guess that's right. That's right. Yeah. And I think if it was easy, then it wouldn't give us as Christians such an incredible opportunity to shine the way that we could. Because you're right, what I was describing was a club, and there's lots of clubs in the world, but most clubs aren't going to break their backs for the people who don't fit in or the people that aren't going to instantly kind of click into place. And so when a Christian community really does take this seriously, this kind of, like, radical accessibility, this, like, radical inclusiveness, like, then what you see is something that you don't see anywhere else. You see the church start to kind of transcend our cultural limitations, and all of a sudden it's like, whoa, I've never seen this anywhere before. This is a totally unique thing. And that's when I think it really starts to look like what something bearing the name of Christ should look like. Right? [00:26:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it brings me Back to page 35, which is just a few pages past what you're describing. And as we were preparing for this, this. At this episode, we both had this. This kind of underlined it. And that was beautiful because it says, spiritual love does not desire, but rather serves. It loves an enemy as a brother. That's hard work. Like, that's crazy hard work. It originates neither in the brother nor in the enemy, but in Christ and his word. Human love can never understand spiritual love, for spiritual love is from above. And it is something completely strange, new, and incomprehensible to all earthly love. When I hear that, I hear remnants of 1 John 3, 1 through 3, which really touches on the Father's lavished his love on us. And we are not seen in the world describing that, because the world does not know God, and it doesn't know us because of that same love. That's what it feels like it's talking about here. And yet, as Christians, we are called to something more. I don't know if you have your Bible app in front of you, but I just want to pull you into Leviticus. We're going to go Old Testament here for a minute. [00:27:23] Speaker A: Okay. All right, let me get ready. [00:27:25] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do this. And so this is part of the holiness code that comes out of the law of the book of Leviticus. And Leviticus 1 starts with this. The Lord said, speak to Moses, speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them, be holy, because I, the Lord your God, am holy. What's interesting about this beginning text is that he's stating something to Israel. Of course, they were getting ready to go into the promised land at this point, but I think for us, it moves us into A space of. Because we are light bearers of Jesus Christ, and the law was completed through Jesus Christ. This all applies to us, too. It says to the entire assembly of Israel. That means to all congregations that we're hearing and working and doing intergenerational ministry, say to them, be holy, because I, the Lord your God, am holy. And then what he does is. Goes through a bunch of these. These different laws, and he repeats things like, for example, when you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God. You are a holy people. And because of that, I am the Lord your God. Model that to the world. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry. I was gonna say, it's cool that in this, like, in the example given to express holiness, it's immediately like generosity. Yes. Like, to be holy is to be generous and to be mindful of those who don't have and to. And to be considerate of that. Like, that is the first example of like, this is what it means to be holy. Don't put so much effort into maximizing your own thing that neglects and deprives others from getting what they need. [00:29:23] Speaker B: And don't look at it as a checkbox list of things that I need to achieve to receive holiness. It's actually out of the love of Jesus Christ, which we talked about earlier, that we express that in a response to. Not because of something that I measure up to, but because this is our. Our default of what we should be doing through Jesus Christ because of the love he has for us and for our neighbor. But that gets complicated and very, very hard all at the same time. And yet I wonder if it requires kind of a DNA shift when we think about our lives. Right. What does it look like for us to the driver in front of us, Right. And I've had this happen a number of times where they're just frustrating me or whatever, and you're just getting angry because of that moment, and then just asking God for a little bit more patience with that person in front of me. Or maybe it's a relative that you've had some broken relationship with, someone you need to reconcile with. Perhaps it means a little bit more grace and an affirming of moving towards reconciliation instead of this idea of just being people who just react. It's this balance of reconciliation versus reacting. And I think that's Part of what we're hearing in this with Bonhoeffer is this idea. Even though it was difficult living in a life that he lived, there was a ton of grace, ton of hope, not because of anything that he could do, but only because of what Jesus Christ did for him. And I think that was part of the underlying theme that we're finding in this book as we've been going through it. I've been talking a lot. I gotta stop. [00:31:17] Speaker A: No, no, you're doing. You're spinning gems out there, Ron. You're doing great. I like it. One of the things that I think is the most beautiful testimony of the martyr, which, of course, is a story that we've seen all throughout. All throughout church history, even to, like, the Book of Acts, is when we see that the martyr was confident in the gospel because their own death could not take away what they had received and what they had believed in and the hope that they still had. And when you look at Bonhoeffer talking about this community being anchored not in how well the people will be able to love and care for one another, but in Christ, who is, like, the foundation of the community. When you see that and when you read this and when you hear the conviction behind his words, you're like, oh, I think he was okay when he was marched off to be killed by the state. Like, not that it's not an egregious thing, but to be able to be like, this dude was carried by the hopes and by the promises of the good news to where, yeah, there is nothing you can take away from this, from a person who has this kind of hope, which is a really amazing thing to see. [00:32:36] Speaker B: He talks at length about modeling a sense of humility. And when we think about our own lives and what that looks like, I wonder, John. And again, he goes into this. But this idea of the importance of the ministry of listening and this idea that God himself presented his word for us so that he could be heard, right, that he could be experienced. And of course, through his son, Jesus Christ, we see that so completely the incarnate, you know, image of God or who God was. And so with that, I wonder if at times we get so caught up in thinking that we need to fill space with our own words, that we don't slow down a little bit and really soak in God's words, for one, but then also because we are all image bearers of Christ, that we don't honor each other by paying attention or listening well to those around us, to making sure that they are heard. Heard and valued. And I wonder if there's something in that for us in terms of a learning moving forward. [00:33:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that in the church, probably, I think it's a Western church kind of thing, but there's a lot of emphasis placed on teaching. I think even in your average church service, you're probably going to find a lot of pastors who think that the high point of the, of the Christian service is the teaching, because that's kind of how we receive the world around us. It's like we believe that to instruct and to give wisdom is the way that we're imparting God to others, which is often why, kind of when I was trained to evangelize, when I was a teenager at a church I kind of grew up in, it was always like, you talk and these are the points you hit, you know, boom, boom, boom. It's Romans Road. It's walk them through the Ten Commandments. Are you guilty of this? Are you guilty of this? There's good news, but it's all about, can I give you as much as possible and are you willing to receive it? But yeah, I mean, we mentioned this before. Like, look at Jesus at, at the well with, with the woman in John 4. And he's just asking good questions often about her life, her perspectives, her background. And he's just listening and he's going to speak wisdom when, when the door kind of opens for. And he's certainly going to let her know who she's talking to because he's the giver of life. But he, he doesn't just walk over to her and say, you know, what's really important for you to know? Like, he kind of like reads the situation with some wisdom and realizes, this is a time where I'm gonna listen and then I'm gonna speak, you know, into what I hear first. But we're just like, we're a very like, information driven culture. And I think that we tend to value the information that others more than the information that we can receive. And yeah, I think that when it comes to your typical outsider or when it comes to the person who maybe isn't experiencing the riches of Christian community, maybe they do need 15 bullet points, but maybe they don't. Maybe they just need to know that their bullet points mean something too. You know, maybe, maybe. I think listening really is an underappreciated posture. Like, again I mentioned I'm a chaplain, if you know much about chaplaincy, you know, the ministry of presence is a huge theme behind it. And it's really, like, when I walk into someone's house and, you know, there's two people there, a husband and wife, and let's say the husband is dying of a terminal disease, and the wife is watching her husband die of a terminal disease. And they've been battling with this for over a decade, and they're just now realizing that they're not going to kick it this time. And it's very. It's very just like the grieving process has already started, even though they're both still alive. Like, what am I going to say? Like, what, what. What bullet points am I going to give them that's going to take away what, what they, what they're experiencing? Or do I just need to be able to sit down and say, why don't you guys fill the space for a little bit? Like, why don't I make some space just for you guys to listen? Like, I spoke with a. With a patient earlier today, and she said, you know, John, you're the only person who comes in and lets us talk about how we're feeling. And I said, that really means a lot to me. I said, thank you. But I was like, you know, that's. That's what I'm here for. Like, that's, you know, no, no disrespects to the, to the nurses and health aides who do all that good stuff, but when I get here, I don't come with an agenda. My agenda is how's. How's. So and so doing. Yeah, so I, I just. I think listening is such an underrated posture, and I think that if you're a person that struggles with humility, you will learn so much humility by learning to listen and listen well, while also realizing that your voice is beautiful and powerful and filled with the spirit. But it's, you know, also okay to let someone else kind of sit in the. Sit in the driver's seat for a little bit, too. So. [00:38:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing some of your story in your chaplaincy, because I think that one of the things that I've learned in my life is the importance of that ministry of presence that you just described. And to pay attention to those moments, one where we all become vulnerable, and to have somebody who's willing to show up, up and to just the ye is huge. And sometimes we don't need words, and a lot of times we don't need words. Sometimes we just need that presence of a godly person who's willing to be with us, to care for us, to journey with us, to pray with Us. And maybe that prayer is just a silent prayer. And that's so, so important when I think about life together as we do. Think about this. Yeah. There's a book that. A few books that Andrew Root have written around youth ministry, and he's actually written a book about Diedrich Bonhoeffer, and it's called Bonhoeffer as a Youth Pastor. And so he looks at his life as basically a youth pastor in the 1930s, during a time of upheaval in Germany at that time. And it was fascinating to read that. But one of the things Root talks about in another book is this idea that transformation takes place when we can gather together. And often the gathering space for transformation, where we come on our knees to the foot of the cross, recognizing we have nothing else to give except to give of ourselves to what God can do for us. Letting go of our own agendas, as you described, is often waiting room in the hospital. Right. It's in that space of wonder and perhaps reflection of life, of time spent both in pain, but in joy. And then recognizing that transformation happens through the movement of the Holy Spirit and paying attention to that. And often when that happens, it happens when we are vulnerable, reflecting with someone, whether it's a time of confession, whether it's a time of celebrating a joyous moment, but it points to a time of hopefulness. And I think that's what this book really kind of leans into, is this idea of recognizing that our hope comes from the One who created us, the One who was there from before time began. And in spite of all the chaos that goes on around us. And let's face it, friends, we have a lot of things going on around us that can feel very, very hard. We just need to come to the foot of the cross and be ready for that moment of God's continuing work in our lives, to experience life together in rich and powerful ways. At the end of the movie, there was this moment where they had taken him and a variety of prisoners away from the prison, and they brought him to an abandoned home. And I believe that the intention there was to eliminate them. I'll just use that as the word sure. And as he was gathering there, and I'm not sure if this was intentional or this was. Or intentionally creative license that was given there. But in that moment, as they were all there together, vulnerable together, you know, the prisoners asked, diedrich, can you be our pastor one last time? And in that last time, they decided it was time to do communion together one last time. And in a place of incredible community, right he begins to talk about the broken body and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And with this, this group takes them through the movements of experiencing true communion together, life together. It was in that moment where. And in the movie, one of the guards comes in, and this guard, I think, was wrestling with his own role of what was happening at that time. And it was a German officer. And he comes into the room, and I remember one of the prisoners says something like this, don't quote me on this, but something like this, you don't belong here. And Diederik turns around, said, no, no, he is welcome here. You can join us for communion. And so what they do is they break bread together and have the wine together with even our enemy, his enemy. And it was a powerful moment of just moving past our personal agendas, of, you know, I don't want to be with that person or they've done this to me or something else. Who knows what. It was a finding that the communion table became the level playing field. It made everything equal. And in that moment of experiencing Christ in that moment just before he was taken and executed, it was a powerful moment of experiencing that true life together. I was in tears when that happened because I realized just the impact of that moment. And I've seen it in other people, too, as they getting close to living their last, breathing their last breath and experiencing the trueness, the truth and the hope of the Bible, of the resurrected Jesus Christ. And what that means for them is they realize that, yeah, life doesn't mean anything without Jesus as my core, as my center. And I think that's really what I saw in both in the book and a little bit in the life of the movie. Of course, I think that's just a powerful lesson for us as we think about what it means to genuinely care for one another, to break bread together, to live life together. It's not easy. There's a lot going on in it. But we need to make room even for our enemies to be able to say, okay, there's space for you here, too, at the table. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, that was beautifully put, Ron. That was really good. Now, you're not gonna want to watch that movie now. Shoot. I think it's already out of theaters. I gotta find it somehow. [00:44:57] Speaker B: So I'm not gonna promote this streaming network, but I'll just say it, but Angel Networks has it available, so if that's something that you subscribe to, you can find it there. Yeah, take it in. Like, again. I don't know if it'll be Oscar worthy, but it Certainly was really, really, for me, it was something to behold to take in, to just get a glimpse of his life. That really made the book become more alive for me as I thought about the content of the book, but also the content of his life. Giving it up for Jesus Christ as a pacifist, didn't believe in war and hurting one another. He just stood up for what he believed in, challenged the authorities and said, we need to do better. We need to do better, right? And we gotta be a better community to each other. So it's a fascinating book. It's a fascinating movie. And we encourage you all listeners to find out more about Bonhoeffer. We're not trying to idolize him in any way. We're just trying to say this is important stuff. As we think about some of the things that he experienced in his life, I think they're important for us to rethink and think about if we haven't thought about them before. As we think about our work in churches, but also just being intergenerationally connected with people in our midst. You and I often cross paths with people from a variety of generations, and it's a blessing to me, and I know it's a blessing to you. And it's in those blessings that we can start to say, ah, I see God here. I see Christ here. Thank you for that, and thank you for helping me be just a better person, a better Christian. And it's learning in that space that it's really got to be centered on Christ. And in that we can truly find our hope. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Well said, Ron. Well, as much as we've spoken about, there is still so much more we could say about this book, which is really just a sign as to just how. I mean, one of the reasons why it's a Christian classic. So we would definitely encourage anyone listening who hasn't read Life Together. I mean, it's what, 120 pages, nothing long? Knock it out in an afternoon without a nice cup of coffee. If you're like me and you get sleepy when you read physical things, I'm. I've become more of a listener lately. [00:47:20] Speaker B: It's working for me. [00:47:21] Speaker A: Better. But, yeah, so. So grab a copy of this and. And then if you really want to be great, you could reach out to us, let us know what you think, share your thoughts. We'd love to have even more dialogue about this. You know, it's called spark dialogue. We're not trying to, you know, put water on the dialogue. Let's just say that. [00:47:40] Speaker B: And Remember, this is our anniversary episode number 10. And we're really excited about that and we're just so grateful you guys join us. We are so grateful that you continue to subscribe. And let me just say this, tell your friends I think there's some really, really good content for, for your other people who, who may like to take in some podcasts. So please recognize, recommend them to your friends as well. [00:48:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be wonderful. And if the Holy Spirit so inclines you, you can find us on itunes and give us a rating. You can follow us on our social media. We've got a Facebook and an Instagram page, both under Generation Spark. And of course, if you want to know more information about our Generation Spark program, in which we will basically work with you and your churches to help you create a more accessible environment for these topics of intergenerational discussion, discipleship, and you want to know more information about that, you can always reach out to us. We'll always have links in the show notes or, you know, we're. We're pretty Googleable these days, too. We are going the Google route. [00:48:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. [00:48:44] Speaker A: But we do appreciate you guys. We even love you. And thanks for listening. Thanks for stopping by. By.