[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey, it's good to be with you. Ron Devries here again with Spark Dialogue, the podcast for Generation Spark. And today I'm missing my normal co host, which is John Simon. But I'm so excited. I've got a new colleague with me. Well, she's been on the show before a couple times. Anika Bagma. Anika, welcome back to this podcast.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Hey, Ron, So glad to be here with you today. So excited to get to welcome one of my friends onto the podcast. So what a fun day.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: You want to do that? You want to give the name?
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. Welcome. Mike McGarry, or as I have always referred to him, Dr. Mike.
I've known Mike for a number of years. We've both been doing youth ministry up in the Northeast together for a while, and we were part of a youth pastors roundtable together. And he was getting his doctorate, so he just, he was always affectionately known as Dr. Mike.
[00:01:04] Speaker C: Affectionately and mockingly.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah, okay, maybe a little mockingly.
[00:01:09] Speaker C: Oh, there was more.
It was a little bit affectionately and more mockingly. But I am here for the mockery, so.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Wow.
We appreciate you and your insights. And you know that Dr. Mike has hugged, held up pretty well because now here you are, an author and a just a leading voice in the realm of youth ministry. And so we're so excited you're here with us today, Mike.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: Thanks. Thanks so much for inviting me. Yeah, this has been a real treat.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: And on that note, I just want to say thank you to both of you for filling in and making this episode happen. We're going to have a little fun just as we get into things here a little bit, just so you guys, the listeners, you people out there get to know us a little bit. And we're just not all serious. We're, we're kind of, you know, happy go lucky in our, in our relationships and our conversations sometimes. So we want to get the, the, the fun juices flowing a little bit. And as I was thinking about this conversation today, and, and Anika and Mike, as we, before we began this call, I was sharing with you a bit of a story about the fact that I go to a ton of conferences in youth ministry and even just outside of youth ministry, but ministry in general and a lot of events, and one of the most beautiful things they do at these things, other than giving us and equipping us with so many, so many good tools and resources, we get swag. And I don't know how many of you listeners out there have gotten swag from an event. And this can be A joy filled moment. Or it could be a painful moment because you just don't know how much to take back with you in your suitcase. Because quite frankly, when we travel to these things, we have limited space in our luggage. And so we have the these moments where we have to make a hard decision. Do we keep it or do we actually get rid of it before we fly or drive home? For those of us who fly, right. It's just a lot. For those of us who drive, I got more room in my trunk. If you're not taking yours, I'll take mine. So my question for both of you is this. If you've ever gone to a conference or an event and they've had swag for you to take home, which swag do you still use to this day? Now, I'll let you think about that for a minute. I will give an example. So recently our friends at 10x10 who put on great events and I've been to their gatherings many times. Ray, thank you for the good stuff that you pass out in the team. But the last one I went to, they were handing out pickleball paddles and a bag that went along with it. And at first I thought, oh my goodness, I don't have room for this. But quite literally somebody gave me theirs and I made room for it because quite frankly, I'm using it regularly when I play pickleball. So this is one of the beautiful gifts of swag that I've received over the years and still using it to this day. Love to hear from you guys. Do you guys have any of those stories?
[00:04:15] Speaker C: I think for me, the first things that come to mind. Pension pens. Yeah, I don't know. I'm. I'm a dork. I'm a simple man. I. I just like pens. If, if I get free pens, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it and throw it in my backpack because it's easy. One of the other things that came to mind, you know those multi prong chargers that has a USB on one side and it's got all the different dongles on it. Those things are just so easy to throw in your bag. And I feel like you. I always need a USB charger and can't find one, so those are helpful. And then shirts, like just a nice soft, comfortable T shirt.
Those are hard to pass up sometimes. Doesn't matter what even is on it. Yeah, T shirts are T shirts.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Totally. I'm thinking about that charger thing for a minute and here's the thing that I'm really wrestling with. With those. And I love them. I think you can't have enough of them. But now they're changing the ends so often on other devices.
[00:05:18] Speaker C: That's right. I know.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: So hard. It's problematic, right? Yeah. Oh, so good to share. Thanks, Mike.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Well, but some of them have, like, all the ends to adapt to all at once. Those ones, those are. Those are pretty key.
[00:05:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Those ones are gold.
[00:05:34] Speaker A: They're so good. So good. Annika, you.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: I probably just really still enjoy a good mug. Not, you know, like, not. Not like the cheaper mugs. I mean, I mean, you know, like a ceramic mug. A ceramic mug that, like, feels good in your hand, that you, like, want to drink your coffee out of every once in a while when one of those comes up. Like, that's. That's pretty awesome. But I'm also in my mom era, right? Where.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: At every conference I go to, I always have to be thinking, what am I bringing home to said child to make amend for the fact that I've been gone for a few days now? So any type of, like, fun notebook that she can, like, fasten or like, it becomes her little book for however long in the car to draw on, color on, I will always pick up a couple of those because my daughter is in love with having a thousand little notebooks around our house.
[00:06:36] Speaker A: Notebooks are so handy, right? I mean, you need them, you travel with them, and it's just such a good, good gift. And when you have little kids like that. Now I don't have little kids at home anymore, so most of those notebooks I actually pass on to my wife, and she really appreciates them too. So I think that's a. That's a multi generational gift, I think.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:06:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Well, and I. I find mugs like coffee cups. I'm so particular about my coffee cups.
Yeah. Like, they're. We have a whole cabinet full of mugs, and I. I use two of them.
It is always the same, too. And the cabinet can still be full, but if one of my two mugs is dirty, I will clean it and use that instead of using one of the clean ones in the cabinet. So.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: I'm so learning so much about you right now. So what is it about these mugs, Mike, that you're going.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: It's all about the handle.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: The handle?
[00:07:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's about the handle and how much coffee will it hold? Okay, so that's.
[00:07:39] Speaker B: That's what I think, like a good quality one. But I feel like everywhere I've gone lately that have given Me a mug. It's. It's been pretty. Pretty decent.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: People are stuffing up their mug game.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's. I've just been pleasantly surprised. And to me, I never want to buy a mug, so.
Great. I'll. I will add that to my collection.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: So those of you who are listening and who hold events or conventions now, we know. Yeah. Keep this in mind, folks. Yeah. So helpful, guys. This was so good. We're going to give a shout out. We're going to give a shout out to a ministry that's. That's kind of dear to our hearts. And we do this every program, and sometimes it can be something that's local to one of the guests or to us as hosts. But, Anika, you have a shout out for us today.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it's really fun because, Mike, you know a whole lot about this ministry. Youth Pastor Theologian is the ministry that you started up here in the Northeast, but you're pretty global now as you.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: Yes, surprisingly.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's fun.
Just helping us in the midst of youth ministry think theologically about how we're doing ministry. I know that's something that's been on your heart for a long, long time. And I know we've had a lot of fun over the years getting to lean into that together and talk about that. But now that ministry has expanded with your podcast, your books, the cohorts that you're teaching, really, youth ministers throughout the world how to do youth ministry in a way that is really focused on the gospel and teaching the gospel well. And so, yes, listeners, if you have not ever heard of Youth Pastor Theologian, check it out.
Youth.
Make sure I say this right. Youthpastortheologian, is it.org.com.com. oh, sorry, Mike.
[00:09:42] Speaker C: Youthposteogion.com We also own.org so if you go to.org it'll redirect you.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: Okay. Okay, There we go. Covered my bases, but just some great resources that you have been putting out and you're kind of gathering a team and, yeah, it's been really fun to watch that. That take hold.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: So, yeah, thank you so much.
[00:10:04] Speaker C: Appreciate that.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So good. And we're going to hear more from Mike on not just this ministry, but his heart when it comes to a biblical theology of youth ministry and things connected around this. But before we do that, I just want to remind our listeners, part of our heart with this podcast is this, that if you're listening for the first time or you've listened many, many times, we want to remind you that Our main focus will always try to connect life ministry, the theorizer and the practitioner into intergenerational conversations. And that's our hope today as we dive into a conversation with Mike to hear a little bit about the work that he's doing that God has called him to. That this conversation will be a blessing to you as you work in, or perhaps are working adjacent, connected to intergenerational ministry. So with that, I want to officially welcome again Mike to our call today. So grateful that you're here. I'd love for you to just tell the listeners something about you that you want them to know about. Who. Who Mike is.
[00:11:14] Speaker C: Something about who Mike is that could get really existential, couldn't it?
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Let's do it. Let's do it, man. If we need to, we'll go there.
[00:11:21] Speaker C: Yeah. Who Mike is. Mike is married to Tracy. We just celebrated 20 years of marriage.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Congratulations.
[00:11:29] Speaker C: Last year. So that's exciting. We have two teenagers, a junior and an eighth grader at home. So that's been a lot of fun. I really love my wife and I both love having teenagers at home. I know a lot of people are just out utterly terrified of raising teenagers. And you hear all these horror stories and everything and we're not perfect parents and they're not perfect kids, but there's a lot of grace there. And yeah, so I was a youth pastor, church based youth pastor for 18 years. And my wife is a special educator in the public schools. So she works in the middle school in town. So we both very much are invested in the lives of teenagers. And yeah, we just, we love having two teenagers at home. And I had the, the wonderful opportunity to baptize my kids this past year and that was really incredible and special.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:12:29] Speaker C: So that was very, very cool. Very grateful to the Lord for that.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: So that's a special moment. You know, it's interesting. I had the privilege of baptizing my grandkids not long ago. And just when you think about the generational connections and the promises of God's faithfulness through the generations, which I'm sure that's, that's part of the topic we'll talk about as well as we get. But I find it interesting. On our call today, we have my colleague Annika, who's, you know, got a younger child and one of the way, which we're just so grateful for. And, and you, Michael, in that middle aged stage and we, you know, our kids are out of the house and we've got grandkids and just that we can have this this. This deeper conversation around what it means to be biblical, Biblically really focused on what it means to raise our children and our grandchildren in ways that. That honor him. So thank you for sharing that. Where are you located? Monica said, you know, you're in the neighborhood, so. So where are you?
[00:13:29] Speaker C: Yeah, so I'm. I'm about 40 minutes south of Boston. So the way I put it that most people can identify with, but then they hate me for is I. When the Patriots have a home game, I have to take a different route to church.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: That is where I. So I live in the town right next to Foxborough. So, yeah, just home game traffic is legitimate and it affects my life. So.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: So just in that comment alone, I learned a lot about you because you never mentioned the Red Sox. You mentioned the Patriots.
[00:14:02] Speaker C: Well, I mean, I'm just far enough out of the city that the Patriots are in my backyard. I mean, you can't be a Massachusetts resident, Right. A lifelong, you know, master Jesus person without having a deep affection for the Red Sox and all Boston sports.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: So, Ron, you really have to come to Boston sometime because then you know that Boston. The Red Sox are like, in Boston proper.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Not 40 minutes outside. So.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: Yeah, they are literally right in, like, the center of the city.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: That's. That's on my bucket list to visit the Green Monster. So that is it.
[00:14:37] Speaker C: You gotta visit Fenway Park. Yeah. If you're a boss, if you're a. A baseball person, you gotta come to Fenway.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: I've got Wrigley checked off. I gotta do the Green Monster now.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Yeah, of course you do. Yeah.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: All right, I digress. Let's move on. Mike, so glad you're here again. I want to dive into. And we'll start with this first book that. The one book that I've read from you, and I know that there's a few others called A Biblical Theology of Youth Ministry, Teenagers in the Life of the Church. And I read it and I found it just so, so insightful. Helpful. For those of you who are listening and may not know what this is, but I've got doggy eared pages all over the place throughout this book. And so just really appreciated the insights. But I want to begin with this first question. What prompted you to write this book?
[00:15:30] Speaker C: Yeah, good question. So my doctoral work basically prompted me to write the book. Okay. So the. My doctoral degree is a Doctor of Ministry and Ministry to Emerging generations at Gordon Conwell Seminary. My thesis was focused on youth ministry as a bridge between the church and home.
And that thesis provided the basis for what eventually became a biblical theology of youth ministry. So about a third of the book is direct from the thesis, a third of the book is rewritten concepts from the thesis, and about a third of the book is new stuff that I wrote for the book that wasn't in the thesis at all. But yeah, my doctoral work really was the foundation for it. And my heart behind it really just comes from saying, hey, I really think that we just need to think biblically about youth ministry. Which sounds like a really silly and foolish thing to need to say.
But what would happen if we just looked to the Bible? Right? Like, if we just looked to the Bible and said, what does the Bible say about passing on the faith from generation to generation? I mean, isn't that where we should begin our ministry philosophy? Anyways?
And I think if we're honest, a lot of people come to ministry and to youth ministry in particular, and they have their ministry philosophies in place and then they look at the Bible and they dog ear Bible verses onto their ministry philosophy rather than starting with the Bible and then formulating their ministry philosophy. So I really wanted to do that and I, yeah, I'm gonna interrupt you there.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: I, I would say that for some that's even a best case scenario where there's so many involved in youth ministry that have maybe felt called or gifted in a certain way but don't have a theological background at all, or who have been asked to go entertain the youth over there while the big church over here does something else. And so, so it's such an interesting place in ministry where you do have such a range of, of some highly trained theological thinkers and some very lay volunteers who are, well, meeting with good hearts.
But what are we actually doing in our youth ministry?
[00:18:14] Speaker C: Yeah, well, and some people even say youth ministry isn't in the Bible. I mean, I, I've heard, I hear people say that all the time. And it just, there's, there are a few ways to make me rage internally more. I, I, I generally hold it in, which, yeah, but when people say, oh, youth ministry is not in the Bible or youth ministry is a new invention, it's only 100 years old, I'm like, no, it's not just like, look at scripture. Like it's in there. It's not called youth ministry and it's not called youth group. Yeah, but people have been doing youth ministry since the Garden of Eden. Like it's just built into the creation mandate of just human flourishing and passing on the faith from generation to generation because we're obviously still here. So people have been doing that.
So what does God's word and church history have to say about building up the next generation of youth? That's what youth ministry is.
So. Yeah. And one of the early titles for the book was, is Youth Ministry Biblical?
But kind of put that on the sidelines because there it addresses more than just that question. But that really was part of the motivation and the heart behind it is to say, like, look, youth ministry is biblical. Youth ministry has been happening in the church for a very, very long time. So let's look at that.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah. When you were writing this, was there a moment where your understanding of youth ministry might have shifted a little bit from what you had early thought it might be to this understanding of it's a living and breathing thing that comes from the Bible?
[00:20:07] Speaker C: I'm not sure I would say that that happened while I was writing the book manuscript as much as over the course of my doctoral program.
And really just coming to a deep conviction about gospel centered ministry.
And at least at that stage of just history and whatever, that's when the whole gospel centered movement was really just everywhere. It was, you know, probably 12, 14 years ago. And so everything was gospel centered this and gospel centered that. And just coming to the realization of saying, okay, so we can. No one wants to lead a non gospel centered ministry. Like, is this phrase even helpful? And coming to the point of really evaluating what does it mean to be gospel centered?
And the way that I've come to articulate that is there's gospel absent. Right. So either theologically so progressive that you have just theologically discarded the role of the gospel, or you've become so focused on being relevant and helpful that you've kind of become legalistic and so pragmatic that if it's not fun, we won't do it.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:21:31] Speaker C: And you make everything a How. Three ways to fill in the blank. That's not the gospel. The gospel is not a three ways to fill in the blank. Right. The gospel is a proclamation of what God has done.
So there's gospel absent ministry, and then there's gospel present ministry. And I think that's where most of us are. We preach the gospel, especially in terms of evangelism, but the gospel is not central to the ministry in all facets and in all regards. The gospel really doesn't have much to do with the way we do fun and games or the way that we recruit leaders or plan our youth group calendar. Right. The gospel really is present in how we evangelize and Occasionally is a part of our teaching ministry, but the gospel is not central to everything in our ministry.
So that was one of the main shifts that happened in me that Annika was part of, just from me trying to figure out, how do I articulate this? And sometimes I can be a little bit abrasive, shall we say?
[00:22:46] Speaker B: I think I remember a rant about a confetti cannon at a camp.
There was. There was a lot of discussion about.
[00:22:55] Speaker C: You have witnessed so many of my rants. Yeah. You could tell some stories.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: But.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: But. Right. This is. It's been a process for you.
[00:23:07] Speaker C: And.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: And I. I'm so grateful to have been a part of it. And, you know, I. I think you were just talking about early titles of the book, and I remember earlier, like, having conversations about that with you. Right. And I was saying, like, oh, maybe we should talk about the. Like, is it the Mike Yakonelli line about, you know, Jesus's. Jesus's youth group killed him or something like that? Like, that would get people to pick up this book. Right.
But it's been this process of figuring out, like, hey, how do we go from utilizing the gospel just in our teaching to utilizing our gospel to build our entire ministry? Right. And it's been. I've been grateful to be on this journey with you for a long time, so.
[00:23:53] Speaker C: Yeah. And I'm grateful to have had you along. Yeah. I've learned a lot from you.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: So there's a point in the book, and you've. You've already touched on it a little bit. Even Annika, you mentioned this. This idea that ministry separate from the body. Right. And the disconnect. The disconnect that actually takes place from that. And for many years, that was the structure that we used. And I think it's Mark Devries who coined this phrase, that Mickey Mouse ear of ministry in the church. Right. It's that disconnect.
And you touched on something that I've been hearing more and more, Mike, this idea that our young people are hungry for something. And that something is something that I think for a lot of generations, and I'm not blaming our old youth ministry mindsets on this, but this. This idea that there's something more. Yeah, right. There's something more. And if we go back even further into some of the. The last two decades of research, we can even go back to soul searching with Christian Smith and Melinda Denton. And when they coined the phrase moralistic therapeutic deism, one of the things we're experiencing now in the church. And maybe your book touches on this a Little bit is this idea that, you know, there was this. This disconnect about who God is and the engagement of God in our. In our personal lives, but also in life as creation.
Since that research came out. These are now parents in the church.
[00:25:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Right. And so what I'm seeing now, too, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, is we're reaping some of the benefits of or the results of some of this. And so some of these young people that we're engaging with and loving and just wanting to walk with are saying, I don't know this story. I don't know that. I don't know the story of Joseph and his brothers. I don't know this story. Right. And so when they are engaged in this story, in the narrative, the gospel proclamation, they start to come away with, oh, my goodness, this is powerful. This is real. This. This is convicting. And so love to hear your thoughts. Is that what you're seeing as well?
[00:26:12] Speaker C: Yeah, there's a lot there to respond to. So I think in the big picture statement, I guess that would be the mission of youth ministry is not to make teenage disciples.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: Hmm.
[00:26:27] Speaker C: Right. It's just not. That's what people. Sometimes people, oh, you know, I want to make this and that. It's not like the mission of youth ministry is to make adult disciples whose faith took root during their teen years. Right. Like, our goal of what we're shooting for is the next generation of. Of leaders in the church.
And so how do we minister to them according, accordingly. And that's going to change the way that we present who God is, what it means to be a Christian. That's going to change the types of questions that we're putting out there for kids and the ways that we are intentionally creating a space for students to ask their questions, because they are asking questions.
And the way that youth ministry in New England has to happen is to give them something worth coming to, because they're not going to come to youth group just because that's what you do.
Right. Like, yep, they're not. There is no cool factor with coming to youth group. There is no social pressure to come to youth group. Youth ministries in New England are very small. Unchurched kids, frankly, are not going to come to your youth group no matter.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: How many cool laser tag nights you have.
[00:28:02] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. So, I mean, that just conventional youth ministry wisdom over the years has been, you know, you want to do game nights and this and that to get the unchurched kids to come and then slowly, like, trickle in discipleship and evangelism.
And I mean, I tried that for a number of years until eventually I just had to accept it's like, look like in New England, like that's these unchurched kids are not going to come. I can't out fun other better options of ways they could spend their night.
[00:28:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: So what am I going to give them that is different and that is worth them coming?
And so instead, over time I was like, you know what? I think the best evangelism that happens in my youth ministry happens by having rich biblical theological conversations with the students who are there and equipping them to have evangelistic conversations with their friends.
Right. Because they have non Christian friends. They have way more non Christian friends than they have Christian friends.
That's just the way it is in Massachusetts. And I think increasingly that's the way it is in other parts of the country too. And so for me it's always been how am I equipping students to really understand their faith and to talk about it?
How am I calling students into a faith that's big enough for them to grow into? Or are we always keeping the cookies on the lowest shelf? And let's face it, who wants to reach for lowest shelf cookies?
Right? Like we bypass that.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:00] Speaker C: And we think like, oh well, like is that even worth eating? Like it's probably stale and crusty.
[00:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:05] Speaker C: So like, okay, so let's put them on the second shelf. Let's help them grow and develop in their maturity and their understanding. Explain what it means to be a Christian in a way that fills out this church kid, church kid, children's Bible so that they're starting to develop a maturing faith. And we're doing so in a way that is clear. Right. We're not over complicating things, but we're going beyond the lowest shelf with clarity so that kids can be having these conversations for the sake of the Great Commission with their unchurched friends. So. Right.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah, very helpful, thank you. So we've talked about, you know, the evangelism component of, of a deep theological base and the gospel centrality of our youth ministries.
But you spend a bit of time talking about family and church and teens, particularly parents.
And you touched on the fact that some parents, of course, just dropping off their kids or what that looks like. Talk to us a little bit about that, that important relationship.
[00:31:22] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean, every single sociological study has shown that parents are the number one influence on their kids lives.
And so it's not true because the sociology confirms it.
Sociology confirms it, because that is the way that God built families. Like, that is just the way that God built us. And I think that's an important distinction.
So what are we going to do about that? Like, how are we meaningfully partnering with parents? Like, it is just unbiblical to lead a gangbusters youth ministry with all the bells and whistles and you're just killing it, but parents are slowing you down and getting in your way. So you just send them a newsletter to let them know when to drop off their kids.
And that's just, frankly, unbiblical.
I'm not going to say it's sinful necessarily, but it is outside of the pattern of what we read in scripture that youth ministry is a temporary ministry.
Kids are going to graduate eventually, hopefully. Right? They're going to graduate and then there comes a point in time when they are no longer welcome at youth group. Right, right. They've outgrown youth group, literally. So what do we do with that? And the way I like to think about it is that youth ministry is for adolescence, the family is for life and the church is for eternity. And I think that's just a helpful three stage metric to keep in mind for like, okay, so sure, like maybe having a game night that is for your family is less fun than having some crazy glow in the dark laser tag tournament. But what is more meaningful for long term ministry? Like, have a Family Feud night for families to come compete in Family Feud and have youth leaders there to form adoptive families for kids whose parents don't show up. So there's, you know, like, no one's an orphan tonight. Like, we got families for everyone. Right? Everyone's involved, everyone's part of a family tonight. But you're creating space for families to participate. You're creating space for kids whose families aren't going to participate so they're not left out, so they don't feel weird about things. But you're speaking positively and you're creating a positive experience, a positive memory for families to experience joy together at church. And sure, there might be other nights on like the scale, the Richter scale of fun that could outpace that. But that is a major win for your ministry if it all depends on what you're measuring. And I really think that we need to be intentional about supporting parents, advocating for parents, creating space for parents and yeah, putting that at the forefront of our ministries.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Mike, I think you said something important there too. You know, we're talking about parents and I mean, amen. Everything you're saying. Yes, absolutely. Over and over again. But there are going to be those students whose. The parents are not showing up.
Or maybe those are the, the students who have come into your ministry through some type of evangelism who don't have parents who are believers. And I think that that kind of gets to the heart of so much of what we do here over at Generation Spark when we talk about creating faith parents, faith mentors, adoption families for all God's kids.
[00:35:29] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:35:30] Speaker B: Do you, you want to touch on that a little bit more or.
[00:35:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And not as an afterthought. Right. Not like, oh, if your parents can't come, then we'll provide like you, you, you gotta be intentional and thoughtful and compassionate about, about it so that they don't feel like, oh, and we'll have adoptive families for kids whose parents don't come to.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:53] Speaker C: Like that's, that's. Yeah, that's not great. I mean, I just know for my, my own self. My parents are divorced when I was in middle school, so I grew up with my mom at home and my dad was not there. So it's always something that I've tried to be mindful about with the single parent families too.
And they have enough on their plate and enough hardship in their life, and those kids have enough insecurity. They don't need the church adding to that.
But how can you surround those kids with other youth leaders who can not try to replace the missing parent, but who can stand in the gap? And there's a difference between trying to replace and standing in the gap. And just the genuine affection, compassion, thoughtfulness.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: And, and what's really interesting about what you just described. So just hearing a bit of your story and recognizing, you know, just your experience of loss when your, your own parents divorced and being surrounded by other people, you know, Fuller chap, Clark, they all talk about the five to one ratio. Right. And, and we all reference that from time to time. But if we think about this scripturally and if there's a listener out here that's listening right now and say, where do I find this in the Bible? Where might be a text or a series of texts that really kind of highlight this for this, the importance of this generational connections, where would you point them, Mike?
[00:37:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, the go to passage for all this stuff is Deuteronomy 6. And one of the things I'm really passionate about pointing out for people is in this passage that immediately follows the Shema, it talks about parents engraving their faith on the hearts of their children and this and that. The nuclear family did not exist in biblical times.
So when parents are called to disciple their kids, it was never mom, dad, living with their children separately from the rest of the family.
That's just a framework that is completely foreign from Scripture that they lived in family compounds. They lived in a family community. They lived with the clan. This is why censuses, right? For the census, you would travel to your homeland, because that's pretty much where everyone in the family lived anyways. And if you didn't live there, then, like, you were out of the ordinary. So it was just easier to take the family census with everyone together, because that's where everyone is anyway. So when the Bible talks about family discipleship, it's in the context of hear O Israel here our God is one. And then engrave these commands on your children's hearts in the context of O Israel. And so, as a covenant community of the church, do we really believe that the church kids are our covenant children?
And if we believe that, then let's act like it. Let's believe that these church kids really are our kids, that they belong to our church. They belong to us. And so I am a Baptist, but I tend to be a bit of a outlier among Baptists, and that I have a very high view. My view of infant dedication, basically, is what you mean by infant baptism just without the water.
So, yeah, we've had some fun conversations, haven't we?
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Yeah, we have.
[00:39:45] Speaker C: But I have a very high view of infant dedication in the Baptist tradition, too. And I just say, like, we either need to stop doing this because we don't mean it, or we need to do it and mean it. These kids are our kids. And this is part of what it means to be part of the family of God and part of the people of God. And I think that's what Deuteronomy 6 means. So I get pretty upset when people sometimes point to, oh, well, it's parents responsibilities, not youth leaders responsibilities. Deuteronomy 6. I'm like, yeah, but it was parents calling in the context of their community.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: I've heard one theologian say it. They were speaking to the congregation. This is the congregation call. And so I think what you're highlighting is exactly that what you're talking about seems like it's. It's. And this is kind of the last pillar of the five pillars that you had in this book about intergenerational integration.
[00:40:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:44] Speaker A: And so can you speak a little bit more about that and what that might look like?
[00:40:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, just when we look at Scripture, it's It's always an intergenerational community.
I mean, all the way throughout the people are worshiping together.
I don't think that means that it is wrong to ever have age targeted ministry. But our default should be togetherness. Our, our default should be to enfold the generations together as often as possible. Yeah. As reasonably possible.
And yeah, I just, I, I was literally just having a conversation with someone yesterday who serves at a church where even teenagers are not part of the Sunday morning worship.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: Really.
[00:41:39] Speaker C: And he was asking for advice about what do you do about that? We've tried a few different times to include the youth in the worship and the parents just really don't like it and they feel like it's distracting for them. I'm just like, frankly, like, you just need to teach about what the church is. I mean, that's, that's an ecclesiology problem. Like that. What is the church? What is the, the people and the family of God? And I just really think that when we, when we give teenagers an alternative on Sunday mornings from worshiping with the people of God, then we frankly need to be willing to admit that our kids don't go to church.
If they go to youth group during church time, then your kids do not go to church. They go to youth group instead.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: So why would you expect them to start going to church for the first time in their lives after they graduate? Of course they're not going to do that. You have taught them that church is irrelevant to their life. You have trained them out of being church people because they've never been church people.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: Colleague of mine once said this, that Annika knows him, good friend of ours. He said for years he's regretted going to high school graduations because it felt like we were graduating them out of church.
And I think what you're describing feels a little bit like that. Yeah.
One last question. And because of our work in intergenerational mentoring with Generation Spark, and you did touch on this a little bit, but I'd love for you to just help us flesh this out a little bit. Do you see intergenerational mentoring as a vital component for youth ministry?
[00:43:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, that's what discipleship is. And one of the things that I've really benefited from in my friendship with Annika in particular is the work of catechesis. And when I talk about catechesis as a Baptist, I get real funny looks from people on all sides of the aisle.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: You can come to the reformer side here.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:51] Speaker C: Hey, I, I would make a great Anglican Presbyterian. If it wasn't for the whole baptism.
[00:43:56] Speaker B: Thing, I. I feel like I almost have him. Ron.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:43:59] Speaker C: I know.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: Working on it.
[00:44:00] Speaker C: All of my Presbyterian, Anglican friends say I've almost got him. Yeah, I'm sorry.
But I mean, that's just what catechesis is, right? It is, is mature believers meeting with younger believers to help them grow and develop in Christian maturity. And I think that's just what discipleship is. That's what discipleship is meant to be.
And in biblical theology of youth ministry, shameless plug. I mean, my whole framework for youth ministry is built around catechesis. If you want to look at youth ministry throughout church history, look for catechesis. And that's where you see youth ministry happening. Parents were called and responsible to disciple their children, and the church had catechists who would then lead the children through baptism or confirmation. Right. Depending on what. We're not going to get into all that.
[00:45:06] Speaker A: But no, that'll be another podcast.
[00:45:09] Speaker C: That can be another fun conversation. Right. But there was. There was a process for it, and the church had leaders who would.
Who would navigate that process with the next generation. That's not new. And that is still the role that youth leaders play today in this longstanding tradition that we have inherited from generations upon generations of faithful men and women who have done youth work and youth discipleship all the way back from the days of the early church and even before. So, I mean, intergenerational discipleship and intergenerational ministry, that is what youth ministry is.
[00:45:56] Speaker B: And it's not just the work of those youth leaders, as we've said.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: It's.
[00:46:00] Speaker B: It's of the whole clan, right? The whole congregation, to be catechizing, to be discipling, to be mentoring.
[00:46:09] Speaker A: Mike. So, in summary, what I'm hearing you say is this, and please correct me if I'm mistaken in any way, that the confetti canon is not necessarily a discipleship tool, but the gospel is this.
[00:46:28] Speaker C: Yes, yes. I'm not. I'm not strictly anti confetti. Let's. Let's be clear. Okay.
[00:46:37] Speaker B: He did walk that back a little bit after. For a while.
[00:46:41] Speaker C: Fun and. I don't know, I remember that I'm.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Being a little facetious here, but what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah.
[00:46:48] Speaker C: Fun and games are not the enemy. Right, Right. Fun and games are not the enemy.
But if you are doing fun and games in ministry to get kids to show up, then you're doing it wrong.
[00:47:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: You theologically misunderstand a culture of fun, and you're drawing kids with fun and then sliding in the gospel afterwards because you don't believe that the gospel really is beautiful and true. And we believe that the gospel is the most beautiful and true and the most exciting thing that we have to tell kids that the gospel is better than the confetti cannon. So let's lead with that.
[00:47:29] Speaker A: Amen. Great way to wrap it up. Great way to wrap it up. One of the things we try to do at the end of each podcast is direct people to resources that they might look at. This is a place for you to have a shameful plug if you'd like. I have a couple listed, but I'd love to hear from you. Where else can people learn maybe about you or perhaps other resources, maybe not written by Mike, but perhaps by other people that people can go to. When you think about healthy youth ministry.
[00:47:58] Speaker C: Yeah, Shameless plug is for youthpastortheologian.com we have a blog where we publish some really great articles. I can say that because I'm not writing all of them anymore. So we have a really incredible team of writers who contributed. So we, we have, yeah, just really great articles about where theology and youth ministry meet and intersect with each other. And a podcast, it's a weekly podcast that I host talking about theology and youth ministry together. YPT really is focused on that particular emphasis. There's other ministries that are doing really great work about lots of different things, but we need more ministries that are really single mindedly focused on the intersection of theological depth and youth ministry. One of the initiatives I'm really excited about is we're hosting a one day training workshop that we can bring to your church to focus on how do we teach the Bible to teenagers with both depth and clarity. Not believing that we need to be either deep but over their heads or clear and really simplify, simplify, simplify. But how do we teach the Bible with depth and clarity and so we can bring that to your church to train your volunteers, your Sunday school leaders, your youth leaders, and to invite other youth workers in your community. What would happen if multiple churches in your network in your area were like minded and working together to really teach the Bible to students? So you can learn more about
[email protected] and yeah, there's other similar ministries, the Rooted Ministry, if people are familiar with that. Walt Mueller's Ministry center for Parent Youth Understanding. Really big fan of their podcasts with Kyle Hoff Smith. The Word and Youth Ministry is really great, really great podcast too. So. And then I have books that are all listed on the podcast, too. My book Lead Them to Jesus is a handbook for youth workers. So that's a really practical, really practical book that I actually started writing for my own youth leaders. And then I realized, oh, this would. I should just turn this into a book. So I talked with the publisher and they're like, yes, let's do that. So chapters are like four or five pages long. Because let's face it, if you give a long book to your volunteers, they're not going to read it.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: No.
[00:50:41] Speaker C: But if the book is basically a collection of blog posts, so it's very accessible.
[00:50:48] Speaker A: Thanks, Mike. Annika, you have any resources that come to mind that you want to share? If not, I've got one.
[00:50:54] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think anytime we're having these conversations, particularly around intergenerational and theological training with parents, the growing young, growing with resources are high on my list of recommendations put out through Fuller. How do we do this together as the church?
So, yeah, that's my recommendation.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: Perfect. I'm going to add one which is a slightly different but still a fun read. Anytime you can read Andrew Root, it's always a fun read. But Bonhoeffer as youth pastor, great fun read. Look at the life of Diederik and those similarities of what he was doing at that time to what we are thinking and doing with walking with our young people today. Mike, I just want to say thank you again. This has just been a joy. I'm praying that we can get together again sometime and do this again. I don't know what the topic will be, but perhaps we'll find one. I'm sure we will.
[00:51:55] Speaker C: I'm sure we can.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be cool. And Anika, thank you for filling in. And this has been just a joy. Any final words before we say so long to our listeners?
[00:52:06] Speaker C: I'm just so thankful for the work that you're doing with Generation Spark. And yeah, we need.
Youth workers are looking for help and how do we help? Like this guy I was referencing the other day. I want to do this. I want to see this change happen in my church. But the senior leadership is resistant because parents are resistant. What do I do?
So keep going, Keep going. We need what you're bringing to the table.
[00:52:37] Speaker A: Thank you. And thank you for everything you're doing. It's just wonderful. And you know, our heart is just too to share the gospel and to reach people. And we're so grateful for the work you do and this team. So on that note, thank you for listening. And until next time, we'll talk to you soon. Bye.
