Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, it's Ron DeVries back again with our Generation Spark podcast. Spark Dialogue is the name of our podcast and I'm just really, really glad to be back with you again as a returning co host. I've got Anika Bangma from Massachusetts who's joining the call. Hey, Anika, how's it going?
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Hey, it's going awesome. Glad to be back. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: We've got a special guest today, somebody who's a friend of ours who's been connected with a ministry called 10 by 10. Chang's on the call with us today. Ray, welcome.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Hey. Hey, it's great to be with you.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Thanks for joining us and really just really appreciate you making some time to have a conversation with us. We're going to be getting into a little bit of what Ray does with 10x10 and another organization he's part of, which is the Asian American Christian Collaboration. But before we do, as always, we just try to have a little bit of fun. We try to dive into some of the serious stuff later. Now we'll just kind of start with this wondering question for all three of us and I'd love to hear from all of you. I have my personal opinion, but I'd really love for you to share. My daughter, who I love, love dearly, she's a book reader, loves reading books. It's kind of ingrained in our family. We love reading books. But she's one of these young people and she's kind of past this young adulthood age right now, but she loves to have the pages in her hands. And so she's a book reader that has the physical book in her hand where I'm lately. And maybe I don't know why that is because I'm even older than she is, obviously. But I'm kind of leaning into the Kindle space or my iPad for reading. Yeah, love to hear what you guys. What's your preference? Kindle or reading on your iPad or do you need to have the physical book in your hands?
[00:01:47] Speaker B: I'm a little surprised with you, Ron. You're a Kindle guy, huh?
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Well, an iPad guy. An iPad guy.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: IPad. Okay.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, I find it interesting. It's really easy for me because, well, I love reading books and quite often I'll doggy ear. You know what doggy ear is on the book. Right. So and I'll have tons of them in pages that I'm trying to hold. And, and that's great on the physical book, but on my iPad I can actually highlight them and they categorize them and put them in order for me when I'm wanting to go back to them at some point. And I just find it really convenient. And I can take all my books with me when I'm traveling, which is quite a bit. And I know, Ray, you travel quite a bit too. So just having them with me digitally, just. It helps not having to take the whole library with you. But that's why.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Also, Ronan, in the US we call it dog ear, not doggy ear.
There's a difference.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Thanks for that correction, Ray. Thanks for that correction.
What about you, Ray? What do you do?
[00:02:52] Speaker C: I mean, I'm with your daughter. Like, I, I love holding a physical book in my hands. I don't know what it is about the, the texture and the smell and the, the movement of the pages. You know, I also struggle because I'm, you know, looking at these new apps that I have adhd. I was recently diagnosed a couple years ago and it's been quite a journey. But there are ways in which digital applications can now help you read if you have, like, tracking issues with your eye or if you have adhd. And so I've been playing around with that with them and I'm like, that's a game changer because reading comprehension is really difficult because I tend to read the same page or the line over and over again until. Unless I'm like literally tracking along with my hands. But I'm with your daughter, though. Like, I think the future and the present apparently is analog.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: I totally appreciate that and my daughter will love hearing that support for that. So thank you for sharing that.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: I'm. I'm with her too. So I'm also little ADHD here. However, like, because I'm adhd, I actually, I am a very much a kinesthetic learner, which means, like, having the physical in my hand and being able to turn through pages is just so helpful to me to actually perceive what I'm. What I reading to the point where if I'm like working through a really important document or whatnot online, it is not unusual for me to print it off, to be able to read it or highlight it or to somehow manipulate it with my hands a little bit. Because I will just. I will learn so much better and retain whatever it is so much better because of that. Definitely hold the book in your hand kind of gal.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: And it's interesting you guys both say that. And I'm slightly older than the both of you, and so I'm just really interested by your choice and of course, for the reasons and I really appreciate that because I think there's a lot of our listeners who are walking with young people or older people that, you know, in terms of reading challenges or whatever that might be, I think that could make a difference. Right. Like you guys were describing, it makes it a little bit easier. So I think that's good to hear. Right. We can't all lean into one space and this is going to be a one size fits all kind of thing for everybody when it comes to reading or absorbing information. So thank you for sharing that. That was kind of fun. Friends, we always, during our time together, do a shout out to a mission or a ministry that's dearly connected to us. I asked our group if there was one that they wanted to share, but I quickly interjected, so I'm going to share mine.
[00:05:37] Speaker C: You gave us the appropriate amount of time.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Thank you, Ray.
[00:05:41] Speaker C: We had so much to ponder and reflect because there are so many great ministries. And then you helpfully offered some direction to us.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Thank you for that qualifier. That's really helpful. This ministry is located in edmonton, alberta, canada. It's run. Its executive director is a good friend of mine. I'd served on the board of directors at one point. But this ministry is called the edmonton native healing center. It was born out of the need for support and encouragement and a lot of things to walk alongside our indigenous population in canada. In their lives. Many people are struggling with getting food, writing a resume, getting dentistry done. And this organization does a great job supporting the indigenous community. And what's beautiful about this, it's a way of building bridges between the members of the edmonton city and the indigenous community, but also the churches. And there's one church in particular that does a really, really good job. They bring bread every week for this ministry and they have it available to this and they're so, so grateful for it. So every Wednesday there's this bread ministry from this church that brings bread to this native healing center. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful ministry. So shout out to harold roche, the executive director of the native healing center, to michelle, his co worker, and all the other staff that work there. And just a shout out to all the people that help serve and help this ministry run so well. Just a reminder to all of you listeners, if you're listening for the first time or you've been listening for a long time, we just want to remind you that our main focus is always to try to connect life ministry, the theorizer, the practitioner, into an intergenerational conversation. And one of the ways we do that is through different book reviews. We bring in topics. Different topics. Sometimes we do interviews with people like we're doing today. And today we have the privilege of welcoming Ray Cheng. He's going to give a little bit more information about who he is, his titles, as well as the work that he does. But before you do that, Ray, I just need to let our listeners know that I'm wearing some of your swag today. I've got. And I showed, I showed that to Ray when I first came on. It's a 10 by 10 T shirt that I got about a year ago and just a real quick shout out to another piece of swag that you had given to a lot of your people. At the last event I was at, it was a pickleball paddle that said 10 by 10 on it. And let me just say it has improved my game by about 15%.
So there was a way to quantify that because I was able to win a few games when I hadn't been able to. So thank you, Ray, for that incredible gift.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: You are so welcome. I take all the credit for your improved pickleball game and how great you look.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: 15%.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: 15%. 15%.
[00:08:42] Speaker C: Our team would be very thrilled to hear that their choice of a pickleball set has somehow made the world a little bit of a better place.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Thank you for that. Was that Lisette's decision or was that your old team's decision?
[00:08:54] Speaker C: I think it was our marketing team's decision. So it's probably Kate and John and I'm not sure who else was in the decision making at the time.
[00:09:02] Speaker A: But yeah, well done, marketing team. That was a win.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Ray, thank you for joining us. Love to hear a little bit about who you are. So maybe we can just start with sharing who you are. What is the title that you currently hold with 10x10 and perhaps even reflect a little bit on your other role as well, if you don't mind sharing with our listeners today.
[00:09:22] Speaker C: Yeah. So my name is Ray. I have the privilege of knowing both you, Ron and Annika or Anika. But not, we're not going to say. We're not going to use the different pronunciation.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: So many mispronunciations of my name exist.
[00:09:38] Speaker C: Yeah, I've had the privilege of knowing you for a few years now. And I have the privilege of serving as the executive director of 10 by 10, which is a collaborative initiative out of Fuller Seminary that is seeking to make faith matter more for 10 million young people over the course of 10 years through a collaborative impact effort and so we have about 150 partners that are all in on prioritizing reaching the next generation. And I also have the privilege of serving as the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative. And so we have a pretty broad community of Asian American Christians and we try to help Asian Americans see them. We try to see Asian Americans establishing their spiritual and cultural heritage as well as providing a space to amplify the voices of Asian American Christians throughout the country. And so, yeah, we're just really glad to be on this call with you.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Thanks for sharing that. Love to get into your secondary role, but I think that primary purpose of our call today was the 10x10 conversation. I'm so grateful that you're serving in both these capacities. That's really cool. One of the things I'd love for you to do, Ray, if you can, is help the listeners understand why did 10 by 10 get started? And maybe how did it get started? Is a follow up question to that.
[00:10:56] Speaker C: Yeah, so there was a research report by the Pinetops foundation and they essentially projected that a million young people were going to be walking away from the Christian faith every year. And if nothing changed, by the year 2050, between 35 and 42 million young people would have kind of disaffiliated from, from Christianity in the US and so a small group gathered together, initiated by the Fuller Youth Institute. Many of you will know Kara Powell. And so she and Jake Mulder and a handful of others asked a few people to come together to talk about what it would look like to together to address this mass disaffiliation that we were seeing. Pew came out with a study that kind of validated, verified some of the concerns in 2022, where they said that by 2070, for the first time in U.S. history, less than 50% of the U.S. population will identify as Christian. And our biggest concern is not that, you know, that there's a majority of Christians so that Christianity can be the dominant religion in the but that if people are Christian and if there's a rapid decline of Christianity, it simply means that people aren't walking with Jesus and they don't know the full and abundant life that Jesus has to offer. And so through conversations, 10 by 10 emerged, which is connected to John 10:10 about the full and abundant life that Jesus offers to make faith matter more for 10 million young people over the course of 10 years. As the years progressed, we became very clear that there are two areas of emphases. One area was around relational discipleship, radically focused on Jesus and activating intergenerational relational discipling relationships. And one of the things that we wanted to see was an active engagement that was crunchy and. And. And full of adults reaching out to young people and sharing life with them. Because the studies seem to indicate that that makes a huge difference at the second level. We're addressing kind of the environment that hinders relational discipleship from taking place, the conditions that prevent that from taking place, and addressing things like the credibility gap of the church, the reasons that lead to young people disaffiliating from Christianity. I mean, I used to work at a Christian college and used to be the chair of the campus Pastors Commission. And one of the things that we kept noticing was that there were a lot of college students that came in as cultural Christians. They knew how to. We can go through the motions, talk the talk, and even walk the walk a lot of times, but their faith was not vibrant or true to who they were. So by the time they left college or came to college, you know, they were. They were essentially already, you know, stepping away from the faith. And so we really want to think about the ways in which we can activate, you know, true faith in young people.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Seems like in some of those cases, some of those young adults, college students, maybe never even had their identity placed in Christ. And so I know some of the things you guys talk about and I've gotten to be a part of conversations have been those identity conversations where. Where are you in Christ throughout your lifetime? Right.
[00:14:19] Speaker C: Yeah, and so. Yeah, that's exactly right. So what we know and what we don't know is that only God really knows the heart of a person.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:27] Speaker C: So there are times in which people appear to be more Christian than they are, and other times in which God is working in the life of someone that, you know, isn't always visible to the people that are around them. And what we want to see is a kind of a deep faith that emerges in young people because the people in their lives that say they love Jesus are showing them what it looks like to love Jesus and then walking with them in an intentional manner to not just demonstrate a life with God together, but to invite them into that process with them.
[00:15:05] Speaker A: So when this initiative began, if I recall correctly, I was at that first meeting in December of 2019 when Jake and Kara were meeting together and having these early conversations. And then 10 by 10 kind of came out of that a year or two later as a formed entity. And even at that time, we talked a lot about. This is much bigger than one ministry can handle. This is Much bigger than. And so what would it look like for us to work together as different denominations, different ministries, different agencies? And that's been a primary focus of 10 by 10. Is this collaborative energy in doing that and building this community together?
Have you run into any roadblocks or hurdles along the way?
And how have you overcome some of that?
[00:16:01] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, from early on, we were realizing, like, what any one of us can do on our own would pale in comparison to what we could do together. And the disaffiliation was so dramatic that the only way that we can really make the type of difference we want to see is if we collaborate and work together. And so, you know, we would say, like, if we all just did our own thing, we might be able to see a 10% shift, but if we all work together, we might see a 10x shift. And so what would that look like? And we're trying to do everything we can to stop the drop and to shift the drift away from disaffiliation.
But, I mean, collaboration is challenging, I think, you know, because everyone has their own priorities, everyone has their own kind of resource limitations, everyone has their own kind of internal organizational and network challenges. And then everyone has, like, just the full workload that almost everyone in ministry seems to carry. Where, you know, most people aren't aware that, you know, people in ministry are. Are essentially working, like, investment banking hours and that, you know, every phone call, every, you know, every. Every time where someone has a meal with someone, everything from sermon prepping to preparing for the liturgies or for worship settings or, or even just hosting a small group or facilitating or coordinating, like, all that just adds up. And. And most people aren't fully aware of how much work ministry actually is. And so we're always dealing with that. And so there's. There are challenges in simply, you know, capacity and bandwidth. There are also challenges in. Because we have committed to being a broad and diverse ecumenical collaborative that, you know, people have different views on a variety of issues, whether it's baptism or on women in ministry or on sexuality or you, you go, you go down the list. There's just, you know, we have members from different communities that hold different convictions on different topics. And what we're trying to say is, hey, let's hold to Jesus and to young people. And then, like, let's work, not just work out our differences with one another, but let's work through our differences with one another. And we might end up remaining on different sides of an issue. But let's still hold together, you know, around these kind of core commitments to Jesus and young people.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: I appreciate you sharing that, because I think it's really important to acknowledge the fact that, yeah, we are coming from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of different differences. And I remember one of our meetings together, there was over a hundred different representatives from different organizations and just really focusing on the gospel proclamation of Jesus Christ as core value and recognizing that the need is so great that without the Holy Spirit leading this movement, this. I shouldn't call it a movement, but this purpose that God has given to us, we can't do it alone. We need to work together. And so that's what I saw, and I think that's what some of our ministry leaders also saw. And just for the listeners who are a part of this, the denomination that I represent, the Christian Reformed Church and the RCA Church, which Anika works for, we are both partners in this ministry. And so we're so grateful, Ray, for your work and your willingness to go to the hard places, because these are hard times sometimes, and just so appreciate the work that you're doing.
[00:19:37] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: I just want to jump in and say, too, as I've been at the table for certain conversations during being part of the 10x10 collaborative, I've just been so impressed and really moved, actually, to see so many people of different denominations who do perhaps hold differences in certain aspects of theology, setting that aside and coming together for what God is up to in the midst of this. And it's been actually a really kind of beautiful restorative thing to see some people who, I would say, like, man, you're sitting at the same table, and in seeing them sit there with joy and not just sit there, but interact and to dream together and to recognize together that God's love for our youth is across denominations, across different theological backgrounds.
[00:20:35] Speaker C: Yeah. And I mean, even the conversation y'all are having and the work that you're doing together with Generation Spark is a model of that. Right. Because, Avika, I think you were the one that beautifully shared at one of our gatherings about the history of your two denominations and how, you know, in some ways, like, what you're doing together is a kind of breaking through the thing, through the divisions that, you know, that. That had always, always existed. And so, I mean, like, we hope that this continues on and. And, you know, like, for us, our posture, this might be helpful for anyone who's listening, is like, okay, how do you navigate people who hold very different and even contrary convictions? You know, I Think that there are, there are different roles that different people will play. I think our role is much more to hold space and to really, you know, kind of encourage people to, to, to, to move in the same direction together. But you know what, one of the things that means is that on some issues, you know, we essentially say, we're not going to put you in a compromising position. We're not going to, we will, we will leave the theological formation to you and your community. And hopefully in the spaces that we occupy together, especially the ones in person, you can interact with other people and have your positions challenged, sharpened, explored, deepened. And a lot of people will come out saying, I actually believe in my position on X, Y and Z more because of these conversations. But I'm also more open to working with people that I normally have disagreed with because I'm seeing more of where they're coming from and actually see potential partnerships that could emerge that serve the next generation really well.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that. That's really rich. One of the things that you mentioned early on is the, there's a core value of relational ministry and that just gets, there's just this thread throughout the material and throughout 10 by 10 as a whole that really displays, that displays it. Well, I would say there's a number of churches that might actually say, yeah, we get it, but you know, give me the best program to do this ministry and we're going to make be disciple makers in that.
Tell us why relational ministry from 10 by 10's perspective is such a core value for the church.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Well, I think one, you see it modeled in Jesus, right? So we always go back to Jesus and say, what did Jesus do? And you know, if it worked for Jesus and if it was good for Jesus, it should be good for all of us. Amen. You know, and I think, you know, even, you know, you never go beyond Jesus. But even if you look at the, the entire narrative of scripture and the way that God worked and even God's very existence in triune nature, it was relational. It's relational. And so, you know, we think that relationships are core. I think, you know, one of the challenges that we are facing is that we have for so many generations now become accustomed to a more programmatic emphasis on discipleship and a content based emphasis on discipleship that we've almost left the people at the door to be placed on an assembly line instead of to be engaged with in meaningful and impactful ways. And then, you know, we've relied on content instead of actually cultivating connection with people. That will lead to the transformation that we hope to see as, you know, especially if we're talking about intergenerational relationship as young people see Jesus in us and in our interactions with them. And so, you know, because the first thing Jesus did when he launched into ministry was start connecting with people and enter into relationship and build community. Like, we don't know if there's a better model out there and a better way forward than actually to doing the work of investing in the lives of people. What's hard is that relationships are very inefficient. And we've really adopted a mindset that ministry has to be efficient. And the easiest and most efficient way to do ministry is programming, which oftentimes creates a helpful container for relationships to take place. But when it becomes saturated with content, relationships can't emerge. And when it becomes so didactic that it's top down or, you know, one directional, then you never really allow the, the people that are in the community to actually voice what they truly believe and then interact with what they're believing. And so, you know, we want to cultivate as much of the relationality as possible. I mean, especially because most people don't feel like they're a part of a community until they're, they're seen and known, but, and heard. But they're, they're never heard unless they're able to speak and share where they're actually coming from and what they're processing. And so we want to, you know, encourage people to take the time to listen, to be interested in what others are saying and to invest their lives. And it seems so simple, but it's not being done as much as we need it to be done.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Appreciate saying that. When you were describing the curriculum and the program structure, immediately what came to mind? Anika, you and I use a resource when we go through our mentoring training. At the early onset is this research that came out of Canada which was called Renegotiating Faith. And one of the things Dr. Rakimstra talks about in this material is that we've conditioned our churches in terms of the teaching platforms to be these stop and start motions. And what ends up happening is you have a child or a young person for a few years and then who's ever teaching them that drops and so then they need to restart and so these start and stop moments. And one of the things we talk about with mentoring quite often is that what they're looking for is continuity, right? They're looking for continuity thread line through the years so that they're not going through stop and start in the relationship, but they've actually got some, an anchor or somebody who can walk with them through those start and stops in their lives. Right. Because that can be very difficult for.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: A folks, the feeling of being known and belonged.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Yes, Right. And so that's what came to mind when you were describing that. So I just needed to tell you that as something that I think just really resonates with some of the work that we're doing and some of the conversations we're having with churches right now.
[00:27:12] Speaker C: Yeah, no, and I, I, I, I love that. I mean, because that's the start and stop. It's always an awkward transition.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:18] Speaker C: And you know, you lose people in the transitions, especially because trust is so hard to cultivate. And in an age where institutional trust is pretty much at an all time low, you know, people are now leaning more on those they know within institutions than the institutions themselves. And so the more continuity you can create, the better. But the only way you create that continuity is if the intergenerational kind of interactions and relationships are cultivated in a regular fashion form instead of in sporadic moments throughout the life of the church. And that's probably where the magic sauce is going to be.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think it's interesting as we're talking about this, I know that one of the resources and materials that 10 by 10 has been putting out is the relational relationship kickstart. Right. And I really appreciate that resource because it's helping youth pastors, youth leaders, kind of rethink how they do ministry. And I think for a long time, youth pastors have been trained to think programmatically versus that relationally. And providing them some sort of training to alter that thinking a little bit, to expand that thinking is just such a valuable tool that you guys are putting out there for people.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So what's interesting is we've kind of revamped it and you would have both heard it about it, but I don't know if everyone would have heard about it. We've kind of figured out like, okay, they need to become more actionable and more action oriented because, like, you know, like we had these seven discipleship emphases where it was, you know, the leaders grow themselves, you know, grow personally, and then they equip families and they train mentors, and then they cultivate identity, belonging and purpose, and then they lead change. And then we introduced the faith formation framework, which is to help adults. In order to activate relational discipleship, especially intergenerationally, we want adults to share their faith with young people. We want young people to internalize their faith through spiritual practices and learning. We want young people to activate their faith through service and justice. We want families, especially parents, to take ownership over the discipleship of their youth and their children by cultivating faith and family intimacy. And then finally for faith communities or churches to really think about how their structures, their culture, the decision making processes are either empowering youth to have agency and to cultivate the faith of young people, or they're not. And so our Kickstart is really designed to help those that are leading young people really think about how they can move young people along by doing some of these best practices.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: You've hinted and named the word intergenerational a few times now, and I really appreciate that because that's part of our heart with Generation Spark as well. But you're naming something that's really interesting. You're naming an importance for this as part of ministry. And I'm wondering then, how does that contrast decades of what? I think it was Mark DeVries who termed the phrase the Mickey Mouse ear of youth ministry right in the world, that it's a segregated body that does its thing on its own, separate from the body of the, the larger church body.
And so why are we seeing this shift? Why is this important now?
[00:30:56] Speaker C: Well, I think it's always been important for some communities, but the industrial complex of the church has made it unpopular. And sadly a lot of people are realizing that kind of adopting the industrial model of factory producing Christianity is not really working. And so they're looking for something new. And so I think the one thing that we see with 10 by 10 is how everyone feels like they're losing. No one feels like they're winning. Every denomination is seeing declines.
The nuns are now the largest single cohort within any religious group. And so you segment the Protestants from the Catholics and now you have a higher number of nuns or those who don't affiliate or formally used to affiliate, but anymore being a larger group, and you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not open to spirituality because it seems like they're more open to spirituality than ever before. But they're not as interested in the trappings of what we might call old wineskins. And so this might be a new wineskin moment. And whether we are willing to lean into that or to resist it is going to determine a lot. We also know that God, you know, God is always at work and that there will always be some faithful remnant. But we would love to see more People simply modeling the way of Jesus in relationship with one another.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: Love that. Love that.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: So as part of a kind of a final question I have for you for this particular part of things, something that you and I have talked about a lot, Anneke and I talk about from time to time in our team and in my work in the crc. How important are solo or senior pastors to this work?
[00:32:48] Speaker C: In some ways, they could be the make it or break it. Right. And so, I mean, this is why the work that y'all are doing with Generation Spark is so important to, you know, to really catalyze intergenerational relational discipling relationships.
I don't know how you do that unless the senior pastor is bought in. And because ministry is oftentimes so imitative, you know, a lot of people have bought into a vision or a model of a, of a pastor that's not engaged with their youth or aren't the, the lead champions for the youth. But the reality is, without youth, there is no future in the church. You know, and, and I, I, I'm. I'm. There's a part of me that's just. I understand why, but I'm also just tired of hearing churches aging out and essentially closing because, you know, decisions were made long before when things could have been stopped to, to really prioritize young people, to, to make some sacrifices for young people, to make some changes for young people and not making those decisions. So, you know, these churches are essentially kind of counting down the clock until, you know, the last person dies, and then at that point, they give the keys to, you know, the denomination or they sell it off for a dollar or so on and so forth. And I'm like, at one point, that could have probably been. And maybe even now for those churches, it could be a place of vibrant faith being cultivated, especially in young people. But senior pastors, senior leaders, head priests, they can really shape the trajectory of a faith community in ways that I think that they know, but they might also be underestimating.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Yeah, you have a tagline, make faith matter more, which just really resonates with me. And I know for Anika as well, thank you for naming that. And one of our key phrases is mentoring matters. And so when we think about the relationships that we have with our young people, the church is one of the very few places right now where four generations gather for a regular time of something, and in our case, hopefully, worship. Isn't that a beautiful place? Isn't that a beautiful place for some of these conversations to take place? And to gather and celebrate the goodness of our God and Jesus Christ and living in to his gospel proclamation.
[00:35:24] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's just what you said just reminds me of, you know, a story that I, you know, I heard. And it was, there's a young person recently graduated from college, and she basically said that after college she really struggled to find kind of deep and meaningful community and mentorship. And as she was reflecting, I was asking her questions and kind of like trying to hear her heart.
She eventually said, I would even stay at a church that is at war with each other and toxic if I just had a good mentor.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: And it just goes to show that young people are not, you know, like, uninterested, but they do want mentorship that will not be as prescriptive and domineering and controlling, but one that really enters into their life and is willing to journey with them from their place and to have the patience to build trust with them because they don't know who they can trust. Everyone that we've told them they should trust has failed them. And thankfully, Jesus is not. But it's hard when the representatives of Jesus keep messing up in ways that, you know, make them question if Jesus really can do everything that Jesus promises. And I understand where the question comes from, but, you know, we just need more people that are willing to walk with them and talk with them and love on them and care for them and everything else in between.
[00:36:55] Speaker A: Oh, Ray, I just so appreciate your heart. Thank you for that. Anika. Sorry I interrupted you.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I just want to jump in here. You know, I think, you know, when I think about the early days of 10 by 10, there was a phone call, and I think Kara Powell was leading it. And I remember having this conversation where, where we were talking about mentoring, but the importance of the adults who are going to do the mentoring. Who are the adults and how have they been discipled so that they are ready and willing to step into a young person's life? And as the years have progressed and I've been part of Generation Spark now, and I've seen ten by ten come to life. I think I had that question wrong because I think when adults step into a mentoring role, they too are discipled.
They too have their faith.
I don't necessarily want to say tested, but strengthened, challenged, grown. There's an obligation there to go deeper with Christ. And just as we're talking, I think that's such a huge role in a senior pastor's ministry as well. Right. Welcoming that space for the adults in the congregation to Say, how are you growing in your faith as you're mentoring, or so that you can be a mentor that a young person can find trustworthy, that can find answers with, that can be steady in the midst of whatever turmoil is coming. If the church is at war, hopefully not. But whatever that looks like, I think it's interesting to think about how when we do intergenerational ministry together, everybody grows 100%.
[00:38:45] Speaker C: And I think if nothing else, if people just walk out of here with that piece, that's the gold. Because in all of my own experiences, I felt like I grew the most when I was engaged with and, and even submitted to the realities and the questions that younger people were bringing to our, our mentoring sessions or the, you know, to our, to our small groups or, or to our gatherings. My preaching was way better when I was listening to young people. My thinking was sharper. I felt like I had to keep up with them and like, really wrestle with the different types of questions that they, they were asking as individuals and that their generation was asking as a whole and like, really contending with the different assumptions that they were making. But if nothing else, if people know that they will actually get more out of it than they actually, they think that they could ever give, like that ends up being true over and over and over again.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: Ray, this has been really rich, and you've highlighted a number of times the importance of modeling Jesus and trusting in him for our life. Are there some scriptural intersections that show up for you as you think about the work that you're doing that may lean into this conversation a little bit? Maybe it'll help us understand a little bit more about the importance of not just the work that you're doing, but that. The work that we are doing collaboratively.
[00:40:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think one of our kind of core texts is John 10. John 10:10.
[00:40:20] Speaker B: You know, my favorite verse of all time.
[00:40:24] Speaker C: Why don't you recite it for everybody?
[00:40:26] Speaker B: For the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I have come that they might have life and have it to the full, or have it abundantly, depending which version you're reading. I like both.
[00:40:37] Speaker C: And what I love about this passage, especially if you read it in context, is that it. It like names the fact that there is going to be opposition, there's going to be hypocrisy, there are going to be. There's going to be efforts to derail your faith, to derail life in general. And then, you know, Jesus offers a counterpart to it, and it's, it's not Just partial, you know, a partial solution. It's like a full throttled, you know, full and abundant life. And so, I mean, and then you just see it all throughout scripture where we're supposed to train up a child in the way that they should go and how over and over you see intergenerational relationships modeled. Well, and, you know, I love Malachi, where it's written that he will turn the hearts of the parents to the children and the hearts of the children to their parents. And there seems to be this, this piece in which, you know, God is constantly trying to bring the generations together. And even if you look at all the genealogies through scripture, you know, we're never too far from, you know, from former and future generations. And so, yeah, I mean, it's just rich in scripture everywhere you go.
[00:41:46] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah. Ray, before we leave you and wrap up our time together, one of the things we always want to include at the end is resources for churches, resources for listeners, things that perhaps they can, it's not a book sale, but that we can point people towards. Right. And help them even in their own ministry journeys. Maybe they're running into some challenges or maybe they want to be continue to grow. What's a resource or resources array that you might be able to share with our listeners?
[00:42:19] Speaker C: Yeah, so come to our bookstore.
No, we have quite a few. So almost everything on the 10 by that's actually created and supported by 10 by 10, they're almost all available for free. And so everything that we directly create is available for free, generously funded by donors. And so we make our inventory for free, our kickstart for free. And then we point to a lot of great things. Partner free partner resources. You know, the, the resource that I don't know if all the people that are listening in have checked out, the Generation Spark resource, but definitely check that out. You know, Asian American Christian Collaborative has some great resources for Asian American youth, especially on identity. And then we'll also be creating one on, on engaging with service and justice. And then Kara Powell, Jake Mulder and I recently wrote a book that will soon be released called the Future Focus Church. And the reason we wrote it is because there were a lot of people that were asking questions about how to change because they need, they all, a lot of people know that they need to change, but they are still trying to figure out how to do it. And so we offer some kind of key insights on what that looks like. We offer a roadmap. So it's somewhat like a field guide, but it's packed with some good research as well as some helpful frameworks to think about how to move towards the future as a church.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: Ray, could you share the 10 by 10 website with the listeners? We will put it on our notes as well, but just if you want to verbalize it for a minute.
[00:43:57] Speaker C: Yeah, so it's 10by10.org so there's multiple ways to get there. All roads lead to Rome. And so t e n x 10.org or you can get there by 10 10.org. I remember asking that we get that. I hope it's still available to us. But 1010.org should get there and then of course connect with us on social media. T e n x 10 collab. That's a great way to meet us.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: Great.
[00:44:27] Speaker A: This website is full of resources for the local church, for the senior pastors, as we've touched on already for the youth pastors, a lot of great stuff for the volunteer. I want to make that clear that a vast number of our churches have youth ministries led by very, very invested volunteers. There's incredible resources for them on this website. And so thank you, Ray, for joining us. Any final sending word that you would love for our listeners to hear before we wrap up?
[00:44:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I know that right now everyone is spent, everyone is tired, everyone seems to be working off of fumes. And my greatest encouragement these days are seeing the people that are hanging on and hanging in. Not because, you know, things are easy or because, you know, things are all rosy. And, you know, you should feel like you're doing ministry out of guilt, but simply because I think the church needs you. And my hope is that as you find rest in Jesus, you'll also find encouragement in the work that, you know, the CRC or the RCA or Generation Spark or 10by10 or other entities are doing. Because we, we see you and we know that what you're doing really matters and makes a difference. And if we can come alongside you in any way, we want to do that. And so know that, you know, in many ways the work that we're doing is because of whoever's listening.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: Wonderful. Thank you. Anika, any parting words?
[00:46:02] Speaker B: No, I just. Ray, thank you so much for this conversation and for the work that you're doing, the way that you continue to lead such a diverse group of people in the direction that God is continuing to call you guys. And yeah, it's fun to be a part of and it's fun to hear about. So thank you.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: And thank you, Anika. And thank you, Ray, for joining us. And thank you listeners for being with us. We're just so grateful for you. And until next time, bye.
