Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello. It's great to be back. My name is Ron Devries. I'm here with my dear friend and colleague Ruth. Ruth?
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Yeah, Ron, I'm excited to be here with you this afternoon. How are you doing?
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Yeah, doing really, really well. Feeling good, feeling excited about our topic for today, which will be teens and faith, a topic that I know is dear to both you and I, especially around our work with generation spark and mentoring. Specifically, I thought it would be really interesting for us to let the audience know a little bit more about us. So I thought we would start with this question. Ruth, kind of a weird question, but let's try it anyways. What is your favorite music genre or your music genre of choice? What was something that really kind of sticks out to you when you think about music?
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Ron, I'm afraid this is going to give away your age. Are you a little bit nervous about that?
[00:00:57] Speaker A: I'm quite comfortable with this.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: All right. All right. Yeah. My genre is all over the place. I am the kind of person who gets podcasts and song recommendations from friends. I have a lovely friend. She makes me playlists all the time. And so every month I get a brand new playlist.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Are you a playlist person?
[00:01:16] Speaker B: I am.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:01:17] Speaker B: I have a playlist for every month, and this month has been classical soft jazz. And so I've been listening to people like Samara Joy and Leon Bridges, and it's been an absolute delight.
They just combined old classical jazz with a little bit of r and b underneath. And the lyrics are poetic. Yeah. It's kind of soft and gentle and kind of holds you. As you aware, I'm in school, so I kind of need something that sets me at a place where I feel at peace and the lyrics feel loving and kind, and that's really where jazz is at.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Music does that. Right. It kind of sets the tone.
And I'm a playlist guy, too. I didn't know if you knew that.
I love creating new playlists. I was telling another one of our colleagues there that whenever I take a trip, whenever I go for work, go somewhere, I used to make a playlist for every trip. And so it was kind of in that same mindset that I thought, oh, okay, how am I feeling today? What do I want to listen to for this trip? And so I'm. Oh, that's exciting. I did not know that about you.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah, we're gonna have to share.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: So jazz, light jazz right now for you.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: So I'm a little all over the place, too.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: So I grew up, my dad, my parents loved classical music, loved different types of music. They also loved the old hymns. Right. And the old gospel. Right. So I grew up with that. Yeah, totally. So that was a lot of the influence that I had growing up. But I would say now it's kind of all over the board. I'll listen to classic rock. I listen to contemporary christian music, but I also love the old hymns. So I kind of like everything in the middle, the jazz thing. I want to see your playlist, because to me, I'd love to hear and listen to some of that as well.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, man. You know, Ron, music isn't just, I see a lot of teens and young adults, right, going around the world, and half the time they have their earbuds in and it feels as though they're not paying attention to the world, to anybody else around them. But the more I think about the music I listen to and the way it motivates and moves me, the more I recognize, actually, teens and young adults who are listening to music. It's moving them through the world in such a unique way.
I don't know if you're on TikTok or not, but I follow this gentleman, and he always pulls people off on, as they're walking, he says, what music are you listening to? And they would play a music, and then he would ask them, why are you listening to this? The answers. The answers are so profound. Some people are like, oh, I'm listening to this person because they're thinking about what's happening in Israel and Palestine right now, and this artist is helping us shape music around justice and reconciliation. Or, oh, I'm listening to this person and they're thinking about this, and they're helping me be gentle with myself. So I come to be more gentle with teens and young adults. As I think about the way music shapes them and the way they see the world, I'm less likely to be like, you're not paying attention. Take off your earphones. Pay attention to the world. But they are. And music is such a beautiful way of opening creative windows for us.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: And sometimes it gives us a language that we maybe individually aren't able to speak on our own.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: And then somebody else is taking it. And through the creative elements that God has given them, they're able to bring it to us in music. And so it's beautiful. So I hear what you're saying, and I so appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: One of the things we do with our generation Spark podcast is we want to do a shout out to a ministry that's dear to us. And so today, I've asked Ruth to share a ministry that she would like to do a brief shout out towards. So, Ruth, you have somebody, a ministry in mind?
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. Ron, you're a little bit far from home today, but as we're in Grand Rapids, Michigan, right now, there is an organization called I Am Academy. They are in the west Michigan area, so they work in Holland. They're coming toward Grand Rapids a little bit. And they are started by a couple named Henry and Lindsey Cherry. Lindsey, I have begged and spent so much quality time with because she is an incredible educator. She has such a big heart. And I've said, lindsey, I need you to be one of my people. I need you to mentor me. And so she's become a mentor to me. But she, she and her husband, as they lived in Grand Rapids and in Holland, they realized that they were black and brown students who did not feel they belonged and did not know how to be supported in their educational spaces. And so Lindsey and Henry came together and created an organization, a nonprofit called I Am Academy. And what it does is it helps create a different narrative for these students, and it helps put a stop to the prison pipeline, because these students, students are now being walked along in their education process. They have mentors who help keep them in school and help encourage them in school. They receive scholarships so that if they're going to a school that needs uniform, they can feel fit and ready to go to school, pays for their lunch and dinner sometimes. Lots of these parents are working, and so they may not have the space to actually have a babysitter. And so they create safe spaces and outside programs outside of school to welcome students in. So they have a space to do homework, to play video games. They have all of these extra activities. Some of them are in dance classes, some of them are in basketball. And they've just created a robust community that says, we see the young people in our communities and we will support them and their parents. Yeah. And I've gotten to be a mentor for two of these students this past year. So it starts all the way from 7th grade all the way into high school. And they help pay and make sure that if you are interested in college, they will help you fill out college applications. They will take you to college visits. They are just doing an amazing job. And I'm so proud of Lindsey and her husband for recognizing that education is so powerful, but not just education. Having people walk alongside you in your journey is so powerful. And this organization does that.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: If you could see Ruth right now, as the way I see Ruth right now, you can just see the passion just coming out of her. I love this ministry. That's.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: They make me cheer up every time.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: They are just so grounded and they bring so many people along in the process.
Churches and organizations and individuals you would not expect are showing up and being a part of this thing. And, yeah, it's incredible.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: When I hear this, what I hear is we give them value, you know, we allow them to be heard. It's a safe place for them and just care. What a beautiful ministry. Thank you for sharing that. That is so good.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Friends, we just wanted to let you know what we are and who we are and why we're doing this. And so if you're listening for the very first time, or if you've heard our podcast a few times now, we just want to remind you that our main focus is always to try to connect life ministry. If you're a theorizer or a practitioner, into intergenerational conversations, what I mean by that is we feel it's so important to think about our ministry focuses through an intergenerational lens. And so there's many of us who live at home and we've been thinking about it. We don't know what it's about, really, but we'd like to learn more. We want to connect with you. Perhaps it's a ministry connection or perhaps in the academic world or somebody who's just experimenting with intergenerational connections and intergenerational relationships. This podcast is for you. And so we want to remind you that regardless of where you are in this conversation around intergenerational connections and mentoring specifically, we're hoping that you'll find this to be a blessing. Ruth, today we're going to be looking at something called teens in faith. And so you and I are so both deeply connected to wanting to walk alongside teens and help them navigate sometimes the complexities of a faith life. And one of the things that we've read through and for those of you who may be familiar with Barna, Barna has been doing research for a long time around ministry, around youth ministry, around young adult ministry, emerging adult ministries. About one and a half years ago, they were doing some significant research around teens and faith. And one of the slides that Ruth and I are going to be looking at right now talks about how teens want to learn about Christ. And so as Barna was doing this research a number of years ago, they asked the question, and they had so many respondents to this question, it was fascinating. Thousands and thousands of teens responded to this. And the question was, if you wanted to learn more about Jesus, meaning Jesus Christ, who or what would you consider a trustworthy source? Now, friends, we live in a time where there's a lot of things that I think push back against what people might deem as trustworthy. And we've heard fake news often and different things that kind of connect to our news sources recently. And I've even heard on the news from a newscaster, Ruth, that this guy had been doing news for generations and he just kind of came out of it. He says, the world's changing. Right? The world's changing in terms of who we trust when it comes to some of those things. What was interesting in the research was it was beautiful to see, but the very first thing that students trusted, they considered trustworthy was the Bible.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: That's interesting. That's interesting, right.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: And I love that.
And so of the respondents, 61% said the Bible is a trustworthy source for their faith. Does that speak to you?
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I find that fascinating because Barnard also did further research on the Bible as a whole. And 72% of teens across the world said they own a Bible.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: But only 36% of them actually read it.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: And within that framework, many of them actually feel that the Bible is relevant in terms of it is ethical, moral truth, that is teaching and not necessarily truth as we know truth. And so when I read this, it both gives me hope to know that, yes, the Bible is still one of the highest trustworthy things out there. And yet at the same time, how they're reading it, how they're engaging with it, means that people must be involved. Right. For them to actually say it's trustworthy, it has to come down to more than just, I opened the Bible and I read it because clearly not many of them are. So, yeah, I'm more curious about that.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting, as you say that, and I look at the other side of the spectrum, the least trustworthy source that they had when it comes to learning more about Jesus. Their research showed that social media interesting was the least trustworthy. And yet it seems to be a medium that continually brings all kinds of information to whomever is consuming the social media. And so I found that interesting. Whether or not that's something that I don't know, are they really, really looking at it for that information or something else?
They're trusting the Bible more, which is lovely, but the social media space is also a place of searching. Right. And so we're constantly looking for that information. And I wonder then if perhaps they're recognizing that maybe social media as a whole is not a trustworthy space.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:47] Speaker A: Do you think there's some truth to that?
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I think most of them are. They're not. They're aware. I mean, I'm surrounded by teens in the sense that I have siblings who are in their teens. I spent time with teens. They are aware that social media is a place where much of their anxiety is further exacerbated. Right. And they are aware that they are picking through objective truths. It is very subjective. You believe this? I believe this information is coming at them at a rate and at a pace that much of them cannot fully understand and engage with. And I think in that sense, they are aware that that is not the full truth, that's not the full picture, because they themselves are aware that they deceive themselves and others in the ways in which they take pictures. There is an app that's all about taking pictures in the moment, right. And I was with my little sister one day, and we were driving, and she's like, oh, no, it's time to take pictures.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: She pulled out her purse, opened it, put on some lipstick, and was retouching her makeup. And I said, I thought the picture was about the picture in the moment as you are. You just came from running around, you know, the playground. You're full of life. Why was that not enough? And for her, she's like, well, it has to be perfect.
And it was a very interesting conversation we had because, yeah, she's aware that she's taking a picture in the moment, but at the same time, there's still this idea that you have to put on a facade, even in that moment. And so I think teenagers are very aware that social media is not a trustworthy space because they themselves are creating moments that are not fully truth. Right.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I find that fascinating because of that. There's that tension where you go there for community, for friendship, and you go there because you too are lonely, you too are overwhelmed, and you're looking for people who are reflecting the same things back to you. And oftentimes you're not finding that.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: Ruth, it's interesting you say that, because I think about my generation. So just for the listeners to know this, I'm a little bit older than Ruth and just a little bit. So I think about my own generation, and we do the same thing with social media. If we're posting a picture of something or we want to present ourselves in some way, it's got to look like we've touched the edges. We've made sure everything is perfect, and that's what we want people to see about ourselves. And so do we truly feel that same sense of authenticity that's being presented? And so we also recognize that this may not be a truthful representation of who we are, which is fascinating.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is. I'm taking us on a caveat, but I wonder if generations recognize that, right. There's such a disconnect between generations. But if your generation recognizes in some way that they, too, are putting, are telling a story and young people are telling a story, why is there such a disconnect, then, between the longings that each generation carries for community and for connection?
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really interesting. And what we're seeing in the research here, if we take a look at the graph again, we're recognizing that the most trusted places for teens to learn about Jesus as a trustworthy source, we're seeing right next to the Bible or close to the Bible are family members, a pastor or a priest or a minister or a church leader. Right. I find that interesting. And so as we keep looking at that, we recognize that it's people walking alongside them in their lives that have a connection, have perhaps these opportunities to share, walk through, learn together in the gospel. And of course, one of those postures is a mentor, somebody who genuinely has a tangible relationship together with a teen to figure that out or to wrestle or to wonder about our faith lives. And so that's fascinating, right? That there are relational people that are on the most trustworthy space of the faith walk of teens.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah, but, Ron, I think we fail to recognize that we are that. Right. Many of us have actually abdicated our responsibility for this space, and that's why we're seeing such a growth in social media. Because if we abdicate our responsibility to walk alongside God's children, as our baptismal commitment expresses for us, young people are going to seek that community elsewhere. And so we really shouldn't be super shocked that that's the case. But why community is so beautiful, why young people can say, I value scripture and I value community, is because beyond what we actually think, scripture engagement is rooted both in relationship with the text as well as with community.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: And the best place for that to happen is in intergenerational spaces.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: In third spaces. And the best place that that also happens is usually in churches.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:32] Speaker B: And yet.
And yet we're having this conversation because as communities of faith, we have abdicated that responsibility.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: Why do you think we've abdicated it?
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Oh, man.
[00:19:46] Speaker A: Like, I have a theory, but, I mean, I'd love to hear your theory, too. Let me just say this, that I think coming out of COVID and I know we're thinking of a timeline, you know, a specific moment in time, and I'm not gonna place everything into that space, but, I mean, there's been. There's been some time where we've lost that sense of community.
We had that time away from one another. And that, I think, was very, very difficult on families, on our teens. I was speaking with somebody just today how difficult it was on their son, and I can think of a number of other examples. So that's one thing I also think as to your point, you know, our baptismal vows, you highlighted that a moment ago, and our responsibilities to live that out and to follow that through.
I'm thinking of a biblical text, right? I think of deuteronomy six, the shema, and the following text within it, acknowledging our God, the one God, the one true God in this world. I mean, let's face it, Ruth, we've got many competing idols or gods. Not one true God in this world that is coveting our time, that's trying to take our time away from the one true God. And I think that's really difficult on homes. It's really difficult on our lives. And so that becomes a problem when we think about what it means to walk alongside in faith with our teens and families and children.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting. You know, this scene, Varner says that most christian teens believe the right things about the Bible, but they lack the feeling that it impacts them. Right. And that feeling comes in that deuteronomy passage. You don't just tell it, you do it also. You do life with people as you're rising, as you're sitting, as you're going, as you're coming. It's on your doorpost. You can think of your doorpost as your heart. Right. It is an embodied activity. And oftentimes we focus too much on the head activity. We say, if they know that there are 66 books in the Bible or they aren't or what not.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: That's sufficient.
[00:22:03] Speaker A: No, it's the difference between the head and the heart. Right. We talk about that sometimes, right. And not that we can't have the head, but it needs to be this lived out thing in our lives, right? It's in the van going to soccer practice. It's in the van going to basketball camp. It is at the beach. It is living this out in our everyday. We're not talking about 2 hours a week. Right? That's not the kind of faith we're talking about here. And our kids see it, they notice it. Right? They pay attention to that. And so this deuteronomy text really does highlight the need for the everyday, in the moment, in everything that we do, we are called to represent Christ in the world, and especially walking alongside our communities. Right. Our children, our extended families. And that's why the five to one ratio, when we, we hear Fuller talk about that, that's such an important piece of our work in this.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's also where proverbs 22 fits in, too, right? It is. It invites us to train our children in God's word so that in their old age, they will not stray.
In order to train people, it is a whole engagement. It is a daily commitment to truth, to life together. And you can't chuck that responsibility off. You also have to recognize that in order to train well, there are many different aspects of training. I don't know if you know this, Ron, but I love lifting weights.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: You do?
[00:23:37] Speaker B: I go to the gym. I know I don't look like it, but I do.
But in order to actually maintain a healthy gym life, I have to make sure I'm eating the right things. I have to make sure I'm sleeping well. I have to make sure that I rest well. There are so many components to training, and I think oftentimes we fail to remember that also in walking alongside young people, it's a difficult one.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: We need our pastors who are going to be training them a little bit differently.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: We need our mentors who are going to be walking alongside them differently. We need our parents, our friends, our friends, our educators, our grandparents. Oh my goodness, our grandparents. I wish everybody, I hope everybody has grandparents, because they play a significant role in the flourishing life of young people.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: I would love to do just a podcast on grandparenting. Ron, maybe we should do that.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: We should do that because I can gush about my grandparents every day.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Beautiful. Ruth, a couple of resources that we want to just give our listeners, if they're thinking about this or if they're thinking about teens in faith. A couple resources that I've come across that I'd like to share with you all. One is a book called growing with that came from the Fuller Youth Institute. It came following growing young and growing with talks specifically about what are our roles when we bring up our children. What are the roles of those who are the spiritual caregivers and walking alongsiders, the mentors in our children's and our young people's and our young adults lives. Really important book. Good data from Steve argue and Kara Powell around helping us understand the dynamics of that. And so I recommend that book and the other book that I was thinking about. It's a book I recommended before on an earlier podcast called Engage the Generations. Corey Seibel is the editor and the collaborator for this book that brought together a lot of best practices when it came to intergenerational connections within the church, specifically around children in faith and teens in faith. It's a fantastic book. I highly recommend it. There were a variety of denominations and ministry leaders who contributed to this book and offered it as just a very helpful resource for churches and for families. Ruth, any last word that you want to give to our listeners as we wrap up our time together?
[00:26:14] Speaker B: You know, Ron, I think within this research and this framework, I'm just grateful that God's word remains an important thing that young people trust and care about.
What a powerful place to stand and to know that. And the world is constantly changing, but God's word remains faithful.
And now we are invited to continue to participate with God in God's ongoing work in the lives of teens. And praise be to God that we get this opportunity.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: And on that note, we want to thank you for your time, Ruth. That was a great final ascending for us and to remember that God's truth is truth. God's word is his word. Thank you for joining us, Ruth. Pleasure to work with you.
[00:27:11] Speaker B: It was wonderful to be together with you. Ron. The gospel is a revolution.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: Praise God.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: Praise God. Until next time. Bye.
