Keychain Leadership

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Well, hello. It's good to be back again. My name is Ron Devries, and we are here with. Well, we have Annika Bangma. Say hello. Yeah. Hi, Annika. How are you? [00:00:13] Speaker B: I'm great. I'm so glad to be here. [00:00:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so good. And we also have Anna Radcliffe. [00:00:18] Speaker C: Hello. [00:00:18] Speaker A: Hello. So tell us a little bit about yourselves. Where are you from? [00:00:24] Speaker C: So, I am. This is Anna Radcliffe. I'm from Grand Rapids, Michigan. I am the director of future Church innovation for the Reform Church in America. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Very cool. [00:00:33] Speaker C: I also moonlight as a pastor of City chapel. [00:00:36] Speaker A: You moonlight? [00:00:36] Speaker C: I moonlight. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Okay. Side hustle. [00:00:38] Speaker C: But on Sunday morning, so it's like, you know, the moon is turning into the sun. [00:00:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. [00:00:43] Speaker C: Yeah. And I work with the generation Spark team. It's been a real delight getting to discern and grow this ministry. We've gotten to see it from the beginning, haven't we? [00:00:54] Speaker A: It's so fun. It's so fun. And Annika joined us. Right. She's part of the generation Spark team. Yes. That's awesome. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So, Annika, I'm here from Massachusetts, some east coast, New England, and I am the newest part of the generation spark team. I get to work on some project coordination and coaching churches. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Very cool. Which leads us into the getting to know us moment. And so one of the things that I've had to experience in my life was moving away from a place that was just surrounded by the great lakes. Love the water, love sailing. Now we're surrounded by mountains, or at least on one side. And so the question for us is, are you a lake city beach person or are you a mountains person? I'd love to hear from both of you, and I'm gonna share from my side. I've missed lakes. [00:01:41] Speaker C: Oh, you miss the lakes? [00:01:41] Speaker A: I miss the lakes tremendously. So I'm a sailor. Did I ever tell you? [00:01:46] Speaker C: Well, you said it just a second ago. [00:01:47] Speaker A: And so Alberta doesn't have very many big lakes. We're kind of deserty. Right. And so not much sailing, so I miss the Great Lakes. Having said that, I love the mountains, but I do miss the water, so I'm kind of a water guy. [00:02:02] Speaker C: Wow. [00:02:03] Speaker B: I didn't. [00:02:03] Speaker C: I wouldn't have guessed that. [00:02:04] Speaker A: No. [00:02:04] Speaker C: A little, like, shocked, actually. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Really? [00:02:06] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm a water person as well. My parents have a boat and we, you know, play on the lake every summer. I was pregnant this last. This last season, which meant that boating season was not as delightful for me. [00:02:19] Speaker A: A little shorter, not possible. [00:02:21] Speaker C: And also, it's like. Anyway, yeah, it was just more challenging being that pregnant in the summer, so. But normally, I love the lakes. I am frequently thinking through, how am I gonna. If I ever move, where's the water? What am I gonna do? [00:02:36] Speaker A: Right? [00:02:36] Speaker C: So I totally feel you. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. [00:02:38] Speaker B: You have to move to New England. Yeah. [00:02:40] Speaker C: I was about to say you're not a lake, but are you? [00:02:42] Speaker B: I'm gonna say I can't choose here because you got both. When we do vacation, you go up to, like, New Hampshire, Vermont, and you have the lakes in the middle of the mountains. [00:02:50] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Beautiful white mountains. [00:02:54] Speaker C: No choosing for you, all the lakes. Do you have a preference, though, like, if you had to pick. [00:03:00] Speaker B: Probably the lakes. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:03] Speaker B: I love paddle boarding. Got a paddle board for Christmas. [00:03:06] Speaker A: You're a sporty person, though, too, right? [00:03:09] Speaker B: I guess so. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Paddle sportsy. [00:03:12] Speaker C: You're sportsy sportsy. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, let's call it sportsy. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. So none of us are mountains people, really? [00:03:19] Speaker C: No, but I bet Ruth would say she is. Oh, I think she would. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Okay, so on the next podcast, we'll ask her if she's mountain beach. I bet she's kind of lake person. Oh, that's so good. So every time we do this podcast, we always have a shout out to a ministry that we feel really passionate about, or a ministry that has spoken to us in some way over the years or maybe currently. And so when we were talking about this podcast, we were planning, what is a ministry shoutout that we want to do? And so, Anna, you had something you wanted to share. [00:03:51] Speaker C: I'm so excited. You know, this church has been walking with us for years. I mean, first Granville, they started this process, I want to say, four or five years ago. They started in the growing in cohort when the RCA partnered and the CRC partnered formally with the Fuller Youth Institute. They were kind of one of the first groups to jump in, and they, you know, their pastor at the time had asked me, like, Anna, is this research that we're seeing true? He was talking about young people leaving the church, and so they jumped in. They started asking, what's next for us? And during that time, the pastor of the church really was discerning his retirement. What's next for him and his faith community? He knew that the drop off of congregations and attendance was pretty high when there's a leadership transition. And so then they kind of simultaneously, the youth ministry leader was kind of asking questions of vocation as well, like, what am I gonna do? So they've started kind of this really intentional process of stepping the senior leader, stepping back and really pulling back, but then also inviting the youth ministry leader into that senior position they almost apprenticed him in. Yeah. And now Jeff is the senior minister of first reformed in Granville. And they have not seen a ministry decline in the way that they would have anticipated. They've seen new families come. There's kind of a new direction that's really all encompassing for all generations. [00:05:19] Speaker B: It's so beautiful. [00:05:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it's been really beautiful. They've really put into place their growing young essentials, and they also, they're really thinking intentionally about mentoring. And so I just think they're going to be a perfect example for us to really kind of look at their example. But then also, as we think about what we're talking about today, which is keychain leadership. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Very cool. Let me just ask this for their church. As they were going through that process with Jeff then, was it a hard sell? Was it something that was difficult for them to say, yes, we should, or what was that like for them? [00:05:54] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think it's really important for anyone who's thinking about something like this. They had a lot of conversations about it. There was, you know, I started the conversation with their senior leader, then I came in and we facilitated a conversation with their executive leadership team. And then that was just to start the process of learning about growing young and engaging emerging leaders. And then it really was them off to the races, processing through what are we seeing in our current ministry context. There was a few conversations that were happening at the same time, but they didn't really get going on this idea of apprenticing for another two years. And their transition process was two years. So that senior leader had announced, I'm retiring in two years. What should we do? They proposed this process, and then once they proposed it, the council was really, in the consistory was like, we think this is a good idea. [00:06:49] Speaker B: Let's give it a try without that intentionality. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Very cool. So let's hold that thought. We're going to dive deeper into that a little bit. But thank you, first reformed in Granville for just that really, really cool, cool opportunity to see that and live that out. Before we get too deep into our conversation, we want to remind everybody why we're here. Before we do that, of course, I just want to highlight that we've got two Americans and one Canadian in the room, so every once in a while you're going to hear a little accent pour out from all of us. Right. They really right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's okay. We're going to have some fun with that. And so every once in a while, you're going to hear process, or process jump out into you. So that's okay. We want to remind you, our audience, if you're listening for the first time or you've listened to us for a number of times, we want to remind you that our main focus will always try to connect life, try to connect ministry. Whether you're a theorizer or a practitioner, we just want to remind you that our focus is to look through the lens of intergenerational relationships. That's the heart of our conversation. And so regardless of whether you're just kind of beginning this journey or you're studying this or whatever that case may be, we welcome you here, and we hope that you are going to find this conversation helpful. So to get our conversation started, one of the things we want to talk about today, the one key thing we want to talk about today is keychain leadership. And this is coming straight out of this book just to make sure that this is not something we've created, but this is coming from growing young. It's a resource book, great research that came out of Fuller Youth Institute. And the book is called Growing young six essential strategies to help young people discover and love your church. All three of us are passionate about this. Absolutely right. In big, big ways. And so one of the things that we've seen in this is there's some really, really great stories about what keychain leadership looks like. But essentially what we're talking about here is much like what was happening in first Granville. [00:08:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Right. Is recognizing, seeing something in somebody and making sure that they are given the opportunity to use. Use the gifts that God has given them in ways that both can benefit the church, but also them in life. Right. Is that a fair summary? [00:09:10] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. I mean, I think the biggest thing which they talk about, they use the example of driving. Driver's training. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:16] Speaker C: And I love that because I do remember the first time my dad took me to the church parking lot, and the instructions are not, you don't just throw your keys over to your kid and say, good luck, start driving. I think the example in the book is actually the keys to the church. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Right. Well, he received the keys for the car when he first got his driver's license. Right. And then he got the keys to the church. And then, of course, he got the keys to the soda machine, which was amazing. Right, right. I mean, that's huge. That was huge. [00:09:45] Speaker C: Yeah. And just easing in. Right. This idea that we don't just let young people drive. We don't put them right into the. Let's let you loose and see what you do, which I think is often the most common way that we try to train leaders, and that's just not kind. [00:10:00] Speaker A: It doesn't work. [00:10:01] Speaker C: It doesn't work. [00:10:02] Speaker A: No. [00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah. When. When you're learning to drive, the parent in the passenger site has just as much responsibility as the new driver. Right. [00:10:11] Speaker C: And getting thoughtful about the way that you offer instruction, even, you know, there's so many times where my dad would be like, no, don't go that way. Don't go that way. Well, which way do you want me to go? You know, that way. This way. We got to make sure that our directions are clear. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:25] Speaker C: And that we're thoughtful in how we're inviting young people into even this process of keychain leadership. [00:10:34] Speaker A: There are four things that they talk about with keys. Right. And so one of the things, of course, is keychain leadership, but they describe other ways in which we hold the key. So they were talking about key hoarding, key loaning. So there's a number of examples that we see in that. I think sometimes in our churches that we are probably doing so as an example, like the key hoarding thing. Right. It reminds me of the custodian at the church, right. They've got the whole key ring with all the keys, and so they've got everything there, and nothing is being given away, or perhaps it's temporarily given, but never the full responsibility of that. So I think we see that a lot in our churches and maybe even in our own lives. So here's the thing. Just so you know, listeners, I'm a little bit older than the two ladies in the room right now. [00:11:31] Speaker C: We call him spicy. [00:11:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:33] Speaker C: He's the spice to our bland. [00:11:35] Speaker A: Thank you, Anna. [00:11:36] Speaker C: Do you like that? [00:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I do, because of the salt and pepper in his hair. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Oh, and this is natural, by the way. I don't have to pay for that. [00:11:43] Speaker B: I love it. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Thank you. So one of the things I've noticed even in my own life is there's sometimes I just don't want to let go of them. [00:11:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Right, right. Sometimes I want to keep hanging onto them. Part of it is probably connected to my own feeling of value or perhaps identity. Right. But, I mean, for a lot of us, we have a hard time letting go. Is that something that you've seen in your own churches and maybe you've seen the other side of it? And said, no, no, somebody has blessed me with giving me the keys, and I've seen myself flourish in that space. [00:12:14] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, with key hoarding, what's interesting is there's sort of this experience where a young person is invited to participate, and then when they do something different than what the person in. Because there's a power dynamic. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:29] Speaker C: The person in power who's extending or giving the key, if they don't like what they're seeing, they snatch the key back. And that's part of what that key hoarding is. [00:12:38] Speaker B: I don't know. The other one that you missed there, Ron, was the keyless leaders. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that's right. [00:12:45] Speaker B: And that's what happens when you also have a hoarding leader, is that the leader who is supposed to be taking over or having some input all of a sudden realizes they don't actually have a key, aren't the key ring at all. [00:13:00] Speaker C: Yeah. The sense of powerlessness there is really significant. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Right. And again, so keys, as we're talking about this, keys are referring to the capabilities, the power, the access of leaders who carry the potential to empower young people. That's the definition that we get out of the growing young buck. And so when you have someone hoarding all those keys and someone without any keys, the power dynamic is really pretty scary. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And what's crucial about it, too, for us to just remember, is that young people find a sense of belonging and connection to the faith community when they are included, when they are given leadership roles. So that's why this is such a critical piece of mentoring and generation spark, because it really does make a difference in the lifelong faith of young people. [00:13:52] Speaker A: One of the things we've noticed in short term missions, experiences. So I've been connected with something called serve, which is part of their forego ministries. We weren't necessarily going to give them a shout out here, but one of the things we talked about was the fact that one of the things that they hope to do is when young people go through those kind of opportunities, that they are then apprenticed, put into spaces in which they can use their leadership abilities for longer term, and then they are seen as vital, that they're seen as their voice is heard. And one of the things we talk about in mentoring a lot, and this comes out of the renegotiating faith report that came out of Canada, is this. This idea that mentors reintroduce our young people in ways that see them differently. And so that's an expression of keychain leadership, is saying, I see you. I see this in you. And here's something, perhaps that, you know, here's a key to something, and I'll walk with you in that space, and. [00:14:53] Speaker B: We need your voice in that space. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:14:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:56] Speaker A: No, that's a crucial piece of this. [00:14:59] Speaker C: There's also kind of the piece of when we invite young leaders. I see this a lot, too. When I'm talking with churches. We invite young leaders. We say, we've got young people plugged in, and generally, it's like we have them plugged into the nursery and we have them plugged into handing out bulletins. And they can be allowed in the tech booth. And occasionally, if they're musically gifted, they're allowed up front. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Sometimes. [00:15:19] Speaker C: Occasionally. And, you know, I don't want to be too negative about that. Those are ways that young people can be included. But oftentimes we keep them in the little confined box that's contained and shiny and beautiful, and that's not also belonging. That's management. You're managing young leaders. And so one of the things we had kind of talked about are there some personal accounts of what this looks like or in our own lives? And so I call it sponsorship. It's been something that Ruth and I have been kind of playing around with in the RCA. If you've listened to us for a while, and it's this idea of when you, as an older leader, are partnering with a younger leader, when you're sharing your keys, you are extending your credibility. And that is part of the significant piece of keychain leadership. You're not just empowering them so that they can lead. You are together empowering one another so that when there's a moment of creativity that that young person leads and you bring them to the table with you, you're extending them and saying, I'm Ron DeVries and this is my partner, Anna Radcliffe. I trust her. I think that what she's going to say is maybe a little bit crazy, but it might get us somewhere. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Listen to her. [00:16:35] Speaker C: Yeah, listen to her. Yes, but there's a risk. Right. And we talked about that with the hoarding of keys, too. You risk your credibility as an older leader. And that is part of the call that we're invited to take, is to really lend ourselves to one another in a way that is glorifying to the kingdom of God for all leaders, not just maintaining a status quo. Right. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:17:00] Speaker A: There's a key thought that comes out of that when we think about these commitments in the growing young. And there's a quote in here, I just want to share, and I'd love for us to just take a moment to think about that. It says churches that aren't shrinking and aging, but are growing in evolving and retaining young people, which brings overall vitality to the whole church. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Love that word, vitality. [00:17:21] Speaker A: Right. It's so powerful. There's something about this that I think gives hope. Right. A sense of when we think about the intergenerational, the connectivity of what we are called to do as leaders, but also as, as younger people, the vitality piece, the, the. The hopefulness that this space isn't a shrinking place. But I believe, and maybe I'm speaking at a turn here a little bit, but I believe that the church, although obviously it needs to be focused on the centrality of Jesus Christ. Right. You don't take away from that. But for a church to receive that encouragement and support of growth, there has to be young people in the church. [00:18:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:18:06] Speaker A: And they have to be engaged in the church. And so this makes total sense to me. [00:18:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Right, right. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know how you have that same level of vitality without young people continuing to raise the bar in a lot of ways. [00:18:23] Speaker A: So how do we do that? What is an example of something that we can do? We've heard about Jeff at first, right. I mean, that's beautiful, but I mean, in, let's say, for example, mountain CRC in the west. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Well, you know what, Ron? I want to jump in, and I'm going to actually throw it back to serve here a second. We were talking about serve and both I was mentored into serve by Bob Gru Sing. Bob Gru Sing just retired this year. Before he retired, he was the longest running youth pastor in the CRC, I believe. I think he still has that title. He'll probably have it for a while. And so I had been part of serve projects with Bob when I was a college student and interning at his church. And then when my church that I was serving at was going to put on a serve project, Bob said, hey, I'm going to come and I'm going to be with you that week. [00:19:19] Speaker C: And he's from Grand Rapids. Right. He's not from. Okay. [00:19:21] Speaker B: And he's not from the east coast. So he took a week of vacation. [00:19:25] Speaker C: Wow. [00:19:26] Speaker B: And he and his wife came and he spent his vacation with me. [00:19:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:32] Speaker B: And I'll never forget, there was my first night when I was running the serve leaders meeting, and I was on my way to the meeting. I had been scattered all day, and I knew there was this meeting and we probably had some important things to talk about. And we're walking there, and Bob comes up alongside me and says, hey, what are you talking about in this meeting? And I said, you know, the leader stuff? And he's like, well, what's the leader stuff? [00:20:02] Speaker A: What a good question. [00:20:03] Speaker B: And I paused for a second, and he took me under his wing, and he made sure that I had the list of what was important to talk about. And then he empowered me that, you know how to do this, go and do it well, and show up well in the very first meeting and let those other leaders know that you know how to do this well. And I was completely green. I had never run one of those meetings before. I'd been in plenty of them, but I'd never run one. And his mentorship in that moment allowed me to be the mature leader in the room that I wouldn't have been otherwise. And I think that that's been so beautiful in my life. And just another little tidbit from serv. You know, I think I've experienced where we've had students who've come up through the serve program and have wanted to stay involved beyond being a student, and they come back to a leadership team. And just because serve as a one week program, they have the capability to be involved on a leadership team, decision making, planning level. Growing young, I think they call them on ramps. [00:21:15] Speaker C: Right? [00:21:16] Speaker B: This wasn't a road trip. It didn't require a three year commitment for them to be part of the leadership of the church. This is a one week commitment with a few meetings beforehand that allowed them to have leadership and ownership and belonging versus just simply showing up and serving. [00:21:37] Speaker C: You know, there's two things about that example, Annika, that I love. The first is just Bob's curious posture. Like, he didn't assume that you didn't know what you were doing, which was generous of him, but, you know, he guessed right. Yeah, but to ask it with a question, I think there's something really beautiful in that. Rather than being like, hey, you don't know what you're doing. Here's my list of what you should be doing. Instead, he allowed Annika to be Annika and to lead as you would, but then to just kind of offer some suggestions, like, I love that he did it that way. I think that's really, really smart. [00:22:12] Speaker A: I saw and heard Grace in that. [00:22:14] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [00:22:16] Speaker A: Love, compassion, and grace. Recognizing that, you know what, there's something we need to do here. He explained the expectations of the key and then gave it. It was so beautiful. [00:22:28] Speaker C: Yeah, it was so lovely. Yeah. Well, and then also the thing that you pointed out with this idea of serve and just the potential for young leaders to step into a next step. Right. And I think that is a tool for all of us in our leadership, if we do work for some sort of congregational or organizational space, is just asking, what experiences are we already offering that could be leveled up, that once someone has gone through it the first time, where's maybe the second level or the second layer that they could start leading it alongside of you. And that's the critical part, is exactly what Bob did. He came in, he'd let it before, many times. He knew it was your first time, and he jumped in the car and drove right with you. [00:23:15] Speaker A: It was beautiful. [00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Incredibly grateful for that, man. [00:23:18] Speaker C: Yeah, he rocks. [00:23:19] Speaker A: So if you are mountaintop crc somewhere, that's a great example of something that you can do now. [00:23:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Right. [00:23:26] Speaker A: You can do right now. Beautiful. I love it. [00:23:30] Speaker C: One of the things we were thinking about doing, which I'm hopeful we can do it now. [00:23:33] Speaker A: What's that? [00:23:34] Speaker C: I'm wondering if we could, like, pick some scripture and media interactions that we've seen to just get curious and learn from them. [00:23:42] Speaker A: I love this. So, yeah, yeah. The media and the scripture. So which one you want to start? [00:23:47] Speaker C: Well, I'm a pastor, and normally I would be like, we gotta dive into scripture. That's a lie. If you know me, I'm obviously gonna go straight into the media. [00:23:55] Speaker A: You gotta. You gotta. Yeah. [00:23:57] Speaker C: So the one I was thinking about, it makes me cry every time I think about it is if you've seen cars three, not one or two. [00:24:04] Speaker A: Okay. Both are good, but I didn't see three cars. [00:24:07] Speaker C: Three is all about mentoring. So there is a young racer. She starts out actually as the coach for Lightning McQueen. When he comes back, there's a couple spoilers and alerts, in case you're nervous about cars. [00:24:20] Speaker B: She didn't believe she could be a racer. [00:24:22] Speaker C: She did not. [00:24:22] Speaker B: So she went to coaching. [00:24:23] Speaker C: She tried once. Wow. She tried once, and she got so nervous, she couldn't do it. She left. And her and lightning, she kind of. He does this unconventional training, and she's kind of along for the ride to try to coach him, but actually, they're learning together and alongside one another, which is this beautiful way of, how do we become racers in this new century of racing? And there's this moment where he realizes it's near the end of the film, but he realizes that she's the racer and that he's the coach. [00:25:00] Speaker A: Now, that's beautiful. [00:25:01] Speaker C: And there's just this powerful moment where she comes onto the track, and he's like, get her in the race. And that's the moment, right, where the keys have. Have fully been handed over. And that's what I think is so critical about the film. If you watch it, you see they don't really know what's gonna happen. There's not a predictable path ahead. He still thinks that he's gonna be the racer. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:25] Speaker C: But somehow, when they do it together, they're both picking up the same tools. They're both learning alongside one another, and it ends up being this just incredible story. [00:25:35] Speaker A: I love that. [00:25:36] Speaker C: So, that's. The. Alongside is the leadership. The leadership mechanism or mechanic is just bring someone with you. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:42] Speaker C: You never know what's gonna happen. [00:25:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Annika, do you have one? [00:25:46] Speaker B: Well, you know, I I was actually thinking about the movie Jesus revolution that came out this summer, and, Ron, I think you've seen that. [00:25:52] Speaker A: I've seen it. Yep, yep, yep. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Love that movie. I've had lots of great conversations with people about that movie, but I actually have one gripe with the movie. Oh, and we love a gripe. [00:26:03] Speaker A: Wasn't expecting this. Wasn't expecting this. [00:26:06] Speaker B: I'm disappointed that it doesn't show mentorship. You know, in the movie, you have the pastor of Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith, and he opens his doors to Lonnie and the hippies and not just opens the doors, but allows Lonnie to pastor alongside him. And that is so beautiful. But you don't actually see much mentoring. [00:26:35] Speaker C: You don't see them working together of that. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Well, there's, like a camaraderie, for sure, but there's not a mentoring, and there's not an accountability, necessarily. And then it gets to a point in the film where Lonnie does need some accountability. And when Chuck starts to provide that kind of retroactively, Lonnie pushes back. He feels like he's being controlled or that he's being diminished because it's kind of too late. [00:27:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's huge. [00:27:09] Speaker B: And then I think there's an opportunity there for us as pastors for people to say, hold on. We recognize the need for this. And maybe there is a turning point in the film where we address this. But unfortunately, it actually happens again at the very end of the film where Chuck then gifts keys, literally gifts keys of a new church to another young man, Greg. And that's beautiful in so many ways. But, again, there's no mentioning a mentoring, or I will walk alongside you and we can do this together. I think the film just misses out because of the lack of mentoring in Ithoodae. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I missed that, too. And when I saw that, it was near the end of the movie, and when he was passing the keys, I thought, oh, this is great for this talk today, right? Yeah, yeah. I would have loved to seen what was the relationship after that. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:08] Speaker A: What did that look like? And so, yeah, I totally hear that. For me. [00:28:13] Speaker C: What about for you? [00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm gonna go marvel here. Okay. Let's go marvel. So. Right. So Peter Parker, who for most of the world might know is also Spider man, but his relationship with Tony Stark in the movie homecoming, I don't know if you've seen that movie, but there's this close dynamic between Tony Stark, who is Iron man, and this young Peter Parker, who's still in high school, just gaining these superpowers. And of course, many, many people will recognize that one of the things he learns through trial and tribulation is with great power comes great responsibility. Right. And so wouldn't have gotten there without you. Yeah. That's awesome. But within that, Tony was also walking with him as a young person. [00:29:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:29:03] Speaker A: And Peter keeps saying, I can do this. I can do this, I can do this. And Tony's saying, hold on a minute. You're kind of young yet we need some more time. And through more of his own experiences being held back and giving some space, he learns that, yes, I need you walking with me, but I also can do this on my own. So there's this back and forth of that key thing that shows up significantly in the life of the movie. And of course, at the end of the movie, Tony wants to acknowledge him and say, hey, listen, we're going to have this serious moment. I'm going to gift you some space and time to share with the world all these new things. And Peter says, you know what? I think right now I need to just be a kid for a little while. Right? And it was beautiful. It was heartwarming. And it was kind of all these things that we're talking about with keychain leadership, both the good and the bad, with trying to give it and holding it back that he, as a young leader himself, recognizes. This is where I need to go right now. But thank you so much for helping me get there. [00:30:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:09] Speaker A: It was really, really cool. [00:30:11] Speaker C: You know, you just reminded me with that example I was thinking about when the disciples are all arguing about who's the greatest. [00:30:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:30:18] Speaker C: And that reminds that story of Marvel reminds me of that there is something really interesting about these young kids kind of arguing, and then Jesus comes up. They're like, jesus, which one of us is best? Which one of us is the best? And he kind of, you know, shuts them down a little bit. But there is. Kids are still kids. Like, they're still gonna do kid things. You know, the other thing that I just want to say about it, when we look at scripture, Jesus doesn't give up on them. He continues to teach and educate and come alongside and be patient. And that is part of the dynamic here, too. This is not easy. It's not. Not awkward. [00:30:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:56] Speaker C: And it's frustrating. [00:30:57] Speaker A: Sometimes I think about. And we'll go into scripture here right now, and some of the stories that engage us when we think about this. And so when you. When you describe that, and I know Timothy wasn't a young, young, young person, but what's interesting about his relationship with Paul is Timothy was probably dealing with some stuff, right? And so we look at two Timothy, and Paul says, listen, I was there when we laid our hands on you. [00:31:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:24] Speaker A: Right. And there's this beautiful moment of reminding him of his own faith formation journey. And then he says, listen, please don't forget to fan into flame the gift that God has given you in this space. I know things are tough. I know things are going to be difficult. I'm going to be with you, maybe not in the same room. I'm journeying. I'm praying for you. I'm supporting you in this. And wouldn't that be just life affirming for us and for our young people going through whatever we're going through in those moments that we know we've got somebody in our corner that's journeying with us. And that's just, for me, a beautiful picture of what we think about when we think about key chain leadership. [00:32:03] Speaker C: Trying. [00:32:03] Speaker A: To figure out, okay, God, I'm not quite sure. Right. [00:32:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Right. Well, and I think we see that over and over in the Bible. Mary and Elizabeth, right? You have this older cousin of Mary who walks through pregnancy and, you know. [00:32:20] Speaker C: The infertility, so many trials, so many. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Different trials that women face, but they also allow each other to kind of hold on to hope together because they're doing it together. [00:32:34] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:32:35] Speaker B: And when you're reminded of the promises that God has spoken over you together, the opportunity for staying in the midst of the hard is just this beautiful thing versus a trial that feels insurmountable. [00:32:53] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. [00:32:56] Speaker A: So one last text that I think will send us out with this is Matthew 28. Right. The commissioning and the sending out of the disciples and saying, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Spirit. And we were just talking before we got into this. You know, the active word go seems to be the thing we concentrate on, but the disciple. [00:33:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:19] Speaker A: Right. Is something that I think is also very, very active in this. And I think that's our call. That's our encouragement for you as churches to not forget that, to recognize that that's part of our call in this and open the door for those deeper relationships to help our young people find maybe their call in life and their vocation and to release them to something more. A couple resources before we leave growing young, we touched on it a little bit. Anna, Annika, other resources. [00:33:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, there's two podcasts that I can think of. One is with Adam Grant, and he does a podcast on mentoring that I would highly recommend people take a look at. [00:34:00] Speaker A: I listen to it. It's great. [00:34:01] Speaker C: It's so good. So good. Brene Brown actually does one just before COVID with Patrice Gordon. And they're talking about reverse mentoring. But there's something really interesting about hearing through this idea of reverse mentoring, getting some kind of generating some ideas. How can we as leaders, really start thinking and inviting younger people to give us their perspective and their opinion? It just continues to refine us and help us grow. [00:34:26] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:34:27] Speaker B: And that's part of the beauty about mentoring. Right. Is that it doesn't always have to be just one way. It doesn't always have to be the older person giving direction to the younger, but it's doing life together and pointing out where God is active in one another's lives, regardless of your age, but doing it together. [00:34:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:50] Speaker A: And on that note, I was gonna. [00:34:52] Speaker C: Say, what a final note. [00:34:53] Speaker A: That's a beautiful, beautiful wrap up for us. It's been good to be here together with both of you. I've been encouraged and I pray that listeners, that you've taken something away from this. And with that, we want to say thank you, and until next time.