IGen and Diversity in the Church

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Well, it's good to be back again. My name is Ron Devries. We're so grateful that you can join us on this Spark Dialogue podcast. And this morning, I have Anna with me. [00:00:11] Speaker B: Hey, guys. [00:00:12] Speaker C: Hey. [00:00:12] Speaker A: So glad you're with me today. We've got a special guest, Eddie Alleman. I've said that correctly, Eddie. [00:00:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that is correct. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Wonderful. And you're with the rca. You're going to be telling us a little bit more about that in a few minutes. But we're so grateful that you're here with us today. And, Anna, it's always good to partner with you in this podcast. [00:00:32] Speaker B: And we're in person. [00:00:33] Speaker A: I love that. [00:00:34] Speaker B: I do, too. [00:00:35] Speaker A: So, as we jump into this conversation this morning, we're going to just. We want you to get to know us a little bit. So we're going to ask this question, just a fun question. When you travel, when you go on vacation or work, what do you prefer? Flying or driving? And so I'm going to start with Anna. Where's your really sweet spot? [00:00:55] Speaker B: I personally prefer to fly. I will always. I think it's more efficient. I think it's easier. Even with two children and a husband. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Oh. [00:01:04] Speaker B: One of which who had the stomach flu most recently when we flew. No, it went fine. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Not all of it was great, obviously, for him, but I just think there's something so nice, though. I don't travel as internationally as Eddie does, but just, you know, a couple of hours. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:23] Speaker B: You get there. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:24] Speaker B: What about you, Eddie? [00:01:25] Speaker C: Yeah, for me, I will always prefer to drive. You know, driving, for me, it's. I think it's great. I love the road. I like to stop for a coffee. I can, you know, see, you know, whatever. I'm driving, I love to see the scenery. Sometime I driving through the city. Sometimes I'm driving through mountains. Sometime I drive into the. To the forest. I love. I will always prefer to drive. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Wow. I'm surprised by that. You fly all the time, too. [00:01:58] Speaker C: I fly all the time because I had no other choice. But every time I had an opportunity to drive, I prefer to drive. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. I love driving. I find it therapeutic. I find there's a lot of time for thinking. And quite frankly, often when you're driving, you know who's sitting beside you. [00:02:16] Speaker C: Yes. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Right. On a plane, you don't always know who's sitting beside you. And I've had many conversations with people on planes that I don't know. And quite often there's a time where you just Put your headphones on and you think, I don't want to talk to anybody today. But there's something to the quickness of the trip. Right. To get there in a short period of time. And yet I just appreciate getting behind the wheel for a while. And you can stop whenever you like. So I'm really in this space of, oh, I love both, but I'm getting tired of flying. You know, when you fly a lot, it can get exhausting, especially the waiting at the airport. Yeah, that's unless you love seeing people. But that to me is just exhausting at times. [00:03:00] Speaker B: I keep wondering when they're going to put like a target in the airport. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Well, they should. [00:03:03] Speaker B: I mean, just don't sell scissors. That's all you got to do. [00:03:06] Speaker A: I don't know if you've seen in some of the airports. I know in Toronto, where I fly in and out of quite a bit, they've actually got these kiosks now that you can buy cake. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Oh, right, Like a nothing bundt cake. [00:03:17] Speaker A: You know what, I think there's a famous baker that has these kiosks from New York. I'm not really sure. And you can buy these cakes. To me, it's like buying sushi at a gas station. I'm not sure I trust that. [00:03:29] Speaker B: No, I feel that. [00:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's really cool. And if you're a regular listener, you always may know that we do a shout out to a ministry that's dear to our hearts. And this morning Anna's got one that she wants to share with us about a ministry that's dear to her heart. [00:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So just ran all of the kind of reviews of Generation Spark, the program that really helps congregations form mentoring relationships. And one of the stories I just thought was particularly relevant for our conversation today, there was an older woman, she had immigrated when she was a younger girl from the Netherlands and she had agreed to participate in the Mentor Mentee program. And she was actually paired with a 14 year old refugee student. And she was super nervous about it, wasn't quite sure how the relationship was gonna go. And what she ended up finding out was that their stories were so similar, that they had both immigrated at a young age, that they had been kind of learning about a new country, learning a new language, lamenting the loss of family, leaving family behind. And she said it actually ended up being one of the most meaning relationships she's had because it was someone who understood her experience in a way that was so similar to her own. And I just think that's really meaningful. That's why we do these mentoring relationships or help facilitate these relationships. It helps people see one another in a new light. [00:05:03] Speaker A: I love that because what you're just describing for us is the importance of listening and being a ministry of presence together, and then to experience those moments of life that often are transformative. Right. And coming from a place that may have been very different than the culture that we currently live in, which is we're excited to hear from Eddie about some of his work and his heart as well, connected to something like that, which is really, really powerful. Thank you for sharing that, Anna. For our audience, we want to remind you that if you're listening for the first time or you've been listening for many, many times, our main focus on this podcast will always try to connect life, connect ministry, connect the theorizer, the practitioner into intergenerational conversations. And my hope, our hope is that today's conversation is going to lean into that in some way as well. So we're really grateful you're all listening to this, and we're really grateful that Eddie can be with us this morning as well. So what I want to do, we've got some questions that we want to ask Eddie today. But before we do, I want to ask, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from, perhaps where you grew up, where you're living now, and your role within the rca. [00:06:19] Speaker C: Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me, Ron and Anna. It's a joy for me to be here with you and spending these minutes with you. I was born in Nicaragua. Nicaragua is right in the middle of Central America. Back in the 80s, Nicaragua was going through civil war and it was a really, really difficult place to live. I remember my parents used to own a small business, but there came a time that they could not able to run their business because they could not find all of the materials that they need for their business. And I was 16, 16 years old of age that time, 1987. So they sent me to Canada. So that's how I landed in Ontario, in Toronto, Canada. When was 16, 16 years of age, I moved into, you know, to live into with my brother and his family. He came a couple years earlier, I think he came in 1985 to Ontario, first to Winnipeg, of all places. First he landed in Winnipeg in 1985. But then he moved to Toronto 1990. So I joined him in Toronto in 1987. That's how I came to Canada. But I grew up speaking Spanish. Remember coming into Ontario, going to high school I think I was 16 years old. So that was grade 10, 11. I did not speak a single word of English. I remember going to my class of high school and I had a problem because all of my. I couldn't do the work that I needed to do because of the language. So my teacher sent me to ESL classes. That's how I began to learn to read and write in English. But it was a good and important time for me during those years. Fast forward almost 38 years to today. I now serve as General Secretary of the Reformed Church in America. So it's going to be seven years in July. It was installed July 1st. Well, I began my journey July 1st, 2018. So it's going to be seven years this coming July. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Wow. Congratulations. That is so cool. We're going to get into some of these questions about your faith journey and how you got here. But just before we do that, the connections that you and I have, and I'm meeting you for the first time today. I lived in Ontario too for a while and Toronto was a connection for me as well. But my wife and I actually spent not a couple of years, but we had a couple trips out to Managua and Nicaragua. And we've done some mission trips out there with Edgedao Ministries, which is part of the Christian Reformed Church. So when you describe that and explain that to me, I remember when we were there listening to, to some of the stories of the people that went through those tough times in the 70s and the 80s living in Nicaragua. [00:09:38] Speaker C: Yeah, those were really, really hard times. Now I go back and, you know, I go back and visit my family. But also in my role now, it's an opportunity to see our missionaries because we in the rca, we have five missionaries in Nicaragua. So it's so always good to go and see family, see my older sister. You know, the older part of my family stayed back in Nicaragua. The younger part of my family moved to Toronto. So my family is in two different places in Ontario, Toronto and also in Managua. So every time I fly and visit the Nicaragua, I can see my family and my wife family also. I'm married to a person from Nicaragua, so she lives, her family lives close to the border with Honduras. So I have a chance to see them, see my family and also see our missionaries in Nicaragua. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Very cool. [00:10:34] Speaker B: That's so cool. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really cool. You made mention of Winnipeg. We made a little joke about Winnipeg. We love Winnipeg. We have a church, church in Generation Spark from Winnipeg. So we're really excited that we could, we could Call that out as well. [00:10:47] Speaker C: Yes. [00:10:47] Speaker A: We've got some questions for you that we, we've sent you ahead of time and we're going to start with the first one. Can you tell us about your experience with church growing up? You've touched on it a little bit. And how or when did faith become a meaningful experience for you? [00:11:03] Speaker C: You know, I was born in a nominal Roman Catholic family. So if you were going to ask my parents about their faith, they will tell you that they are Roman Catholic. But in reality we never went to church. So I had no experience about reading the Bible as a young kid or praying at night or any of those practices that are really foundational for the Christian faith. So I had no experience of that. I remember going with my parents to the Catholic church when there was a wedding or a funeral or a baptism of a family baby. But I had no experience about faith growing up. So that has been my journey. My first experience with faith was when I came to Toronto. My brother and his family were attending a church. So that's how I connected with the faith. I remember it was a Pentecostal church. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Oh man. Roman cabin. You dove. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. [00:12:17] Speaker B: He didn't just go to church, he went to church. [00:12:20] Speaker C: It was a Pentecostal church. I remember worship three hours. Wow. Those kinds of really hardcore Pentecostals. It was a pastor coming. And remember the pastor used to be. Used to live in Buffalo, New York is from Puerto Rico. Every weekend he crossed the border to Toronto and did his pastoral visits and then worship on Sunday and then drove back to, to Buffalo, New York every Sunday. So he would drive Saturday morning and then drive back Sunday afternoon. That was his. [00:12:59] Speaker B: That's committed. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Very committed. [00:13:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was committed. So that's how I began church. But honestly, I did not like all of the things that they did at the church. You know, everything was a sin. If you were wearing jeans, for example, as a scene, I would not make. So short sleeve shirts also that's a scene you needed to wear, you know, long sleeve and if you were a man, so you needed a tie and a long sleeve shirt for worship. You cannot worship in jeans or sweatshirts or things like that. That's always seen that was a scene. And for me, I was a young kid, 18 years old. [00:13:44] Speaker B: I know I'm picturing like an 18 year old suit up, Bo. [00:13:48] Speaker C: And then, you know, it was a problem. And back in the 80s, you know, I used to have an afro and for me, I love my afro and my hair was like, you know, with an afro and this was the 80s. And for me, that was cool, that was good. But the pastor didn't like my Afro. Every time he asked me if I needed. When was the time that I need to see the barber just to really, just to cut my hair? [00:14:18] Speaker A: Just for our listeners, Eddie does not have an Afro today. [00:14:23] Speaker C: That's part of my history. [00:14:25] Speaker B: Wow. [00:14:26] Speaker C: So for me, but that's where I met Jesus. I love the small group that they had. I love the youth group that they had. I didn't like the whole church because the way they did things, I didn't like it. But I really love my young. My small group that was a group of young kids coming from different parts of Latin America. So that's how I began to relate with people from Argentina, from Ecuador, from Colombia, from Venezuela. And I really love that small youth group. That's why for me, this is so important, you know, the ministry to young people. Because I did not connect it well with the whole church because, you know, I didn't like four hour services, things like that. But I really loved that time with the younger generation. So I was baptized in that church. I remember it was December 19, 1987. It was a Saturday. It was cold, it was freezing outside. But they were worshiping in this Baptist church building. They have a huge, you know, place for baptism. So I was immersed with a lot of other young, young people. I can remember that day. So I said, Saturday, December 19, 1987, when I was baptized. [00:15:56] Speaker A: So so far you've touched on the Catholic, the Pentecostal, and now the Baptist. And so I'm just right. This is really cool. This is really cool. [00:16:06] Speaker B: Eddie. I think the thing that I'm wondering about, you know, we've talked a lot about how belonging matters so much to your connection with faith. And what I'm hearing you say is that you became a part of this faith community after immigrating to Canada. And was that like your first kind of group of friends was the youth group that was. [00:16:33] Speaker C: Well, in Nicaragua, I have friends from my neighborhood. Neighborhood. But this was a different kind of, different kind of group because we studied the Bible together, we read the stories of the gospel. For me, that was the first time I came close to the stories of Jesus, stories of the Gospel, the Bible again at home. I grew up in my family. I think my parents, they loved God, but they didn't have that experience of saying, hey, let me read you story of the Bible. And for me, and maybe the person that was leading the group, she did a really good job in inviting us to Even practice the stories of the Bible, just to leave out the stories of the Bible. So I remember choosing, she would choose a story from the Gospels and then she said, okay, now we're going to act the story. [00:17:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, wow. Oh my goodness. [00:17:38] Speaker C: And now you learn your part. So you give us the part of everybody. And then we, and it was like a, like a game, but, but, but a game where we read the story of the Bible. I needed to memorize, you know, my part. And, and I, I was looking forward to that, to that, you know, Friday, Friday evening meeting where we're going to, to do a play of the story. And then she would invite us to do a play with the whole church. So that was so meaningful to me, really important as I not only read the stories of scripture, but also live out and practice and be. We used to do a play. So that was the first meaningful group. My friends in my neighborhood, I always see them, I grew up with them. But this was different because, you know, we study scripture, we prayed together, we supported one another, and we were a group of immigrants coming to a different place, you know, a different country. So we did that in Spanish, so I can use my Spanish. Then at school I needed to learn English to do my, you know, my high school and then my college. But that group of friends became really meaningful to me. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, in some ways too. What you're describing is kind of like the story of the 80 year old Dutch lady who comes in and meets the refugee. It's that sense of shared understanding. Your community ended up having a similar experience. Sounds like from all different countries. But still being able to connect those things in the context of faith just adds that extra layer of depth and meaning. [00:19:21] Speaker C: Yeah, you said it right. In the context of faith, having those experiences, those connections, I think that was really important and meaningful to me in my own formation because, you know, as a child, as a small child, I didn't have that experience. As a young man, I had those experiences and those were really formative for my own journey of faith, my own journey of life and as a minister to the gospel also. Those were really important to me and that's how I really organized my ministry. Serving in a local church. [00:19:58] Speaker B: Yeah, right, because you did youth, you, you led youth ministry as well as church planted in California. [00:20:03] Speaker C: Yes. [00:20:04] Speaker B: You know, tell us a little bit about when you then stepped into this level of leadership. What, what did you learn? You know, what did you bring with you into setting this space for kids in youth ministry? How did you do that? [00:20:16] Speaker C: Yeah, for me that was really important. So. So in that church, I learned a lot. But when I got married, I got married young. So I was. I was 18 years old when I got married. I met Daisy, my beautiful wife, at that church also. But because, you know, my experience with the youth group was really meaningful to me, but not with the whole church the way the church was. I said, you know, we are young, so I think we need to find a different place to worship Jesus. And that's how I got connected with the Reformed church in America. So after leaving that place, after my marriage with Daisy, I began praying for a new place that I could be part of and form a family. And we're looking for a place and someone invited me to a church plant. And that's how I became in love with church planting in the Reformed church in America. And we found that church. There was a church in Toronto, Maple Leaf Drive Reformed Church. Close to what a good Canadian name? [00:21:32] Speaker A: Totally Maple Leaf. [00:21:33] Speaker C: I love that Maple Leaf Drive Reformed Church. That was in Etobicoke and it was great. Close to Jane street in Shepherd. It was a nice neighborhood, small church, but they were hosting a Spanish speaking church plant. The pastor came from Chicago, from Colorado. He was in Colombia. So the classes of Ontario said, we need a Spanish speaking pastor to lead a Spanish speaking ministry for those immigrants from Latin America. And they found a pastor in Chicago. So he moved from Chicago to Toronto from Colombia. And that's how we began our journey of faith in a new place where church service was different and the ministry was different. So in that church, I began serv was only 21, 22, really. Recently married, you know, with my wife, we have one kid. I began serving as a youth leader and I did. I put into practice a lot of the things that I learned before, you know, put into practice, you know, the stories of the Bible. For me, reading the Bible is amazing. The stories of the Bible are full of energy, full of passion, and those are great. And that's what I taught the younger generation. You know, my job was to really allow them to fall in love with the stories of the Bible. [00:23:08] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. [00:23:09] Speaker C: Some stories are. Some stories are really scary. Some stories are like, really, you know, why would they be? [00:23:17] Speaker B: That was not smart, Moses. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, you should know that. [00:23:20] Speaker A: What were you thinking in that moment? Yeah. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Isaac? I don't think so. [00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:24] Speaker C: So for me, it was really important to get every story and I had a lot of material to teach. So every story of the Bible. My job was to see these young people to fall in love with the stories. I love that they needed to remember those stories, you know, forever. I remember the stories when I was 16 and I'm in my 50s, and I'm in love with the stories. So that's what I did in that church. And also I became an elder. I. I drove the van, the church's van. [00:23:58] Speaker A: That's why he loves driving. [00:24:00] Speaker B: Yeah, except those kids. [00:24:02] Speaker C: So I did a lot of different things as a leader in that church. And then I began connecting with the classes. I began serving on the classes of Ontario or the rca. They had a ministry called the Discipleship Committee. So I began as part of the Discipleship Committee at the classes level. So that's how I began working more denominationally, you know, trying to train Sunday school teachers to tell stories of the Bible in a different way. [00:24:34] Speaker B: I love that. [00:24:35] Speaker A: That is so good. [00:24:36] Speaker B: I promise everyone listening. We did not plan Eddie, to say this, but what I just love is the connection to your heart of being a youth, coming to faith, finding the rich depth of narrative in scripture, falling in love with it, and then taking it not just to youth ministry, but taking it to church at large. That's what we love about. [00:24:57] Speaker C: And I remember my committee, the committee that I was part of in the classes, we had a meeting where we bring all of the Sunday school teachers from all of the churches in our classes and just gave some training about the narrative, the story, the importance of scripture, so that they can teach the Bible in a meaningful way to their kids. [00:25:22] Speaker B: I love that. [00:25:23] Speaker C: I had a lot of fun doing that, and I was only 22 years old, 23. [00:25:28] Speaker B: You want to run that back? [00:25:29] Speaker A: That is so good. That is so good. I want to just follow up with a couple things because I'm hearing some really beautiful overlaps for us in Generation Spark. But you've mentioned a couple times now at the beginning of your faith journey, that you were invited into places, people invited you, and then you reciprocated that, and then you started inviting others to live into that journey, that, that faith formation narrative of the gospel. I think that's beautiful, and I think that's one of the things we talk about often, is our roles as walking alongsiders, people who walk in faith with one another, that we're inviting them into a space that takes them on this journey to explore the gospel narrative, to wonder about, where am I going and how is God using me? And your story really just highlights that, that God was taking you on a journey, and it was because of some of those invitations into those spaces that that started to be lived. Out, and that's very powerful. Thank you for sharing that. [00:26:35] Speaker C: No, I really am thankful to God for all of those opportunities, those opportunities of people that invested in me. And since the beginning of my journey in the, the first church that my brother was attending, that youth leader invested in me. You know, I remember, you know, when I was like, you know, as a young immigrant in a different place, I remember she telling me more than just, you know, teaching the Bible, but just, Eddie, how you doing? How was your week in school? So she was a pastor to me. She did a really good job as a youth leader of that church. Not only, you know, the stories of the Bible, but she, she shared a concern for me. [00:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:26] Speaker C: As a, as a person. And I really appreciated that. She brought me along and then that's what I did when I became a youth leader in the other church. This, this was a Reformed church already. So, you know, knowing that the importance of listening to people, the importance of coming alongside people, younger people, just to be there and being a good listener for them. I was a young person myself also, but I was married, I had one child, so my wife was also. We were the same age, so we were 23, 22, 23, both of us. And together we led that group. And just listening to these young people with a lot of questions, adapting to a new place, adapting to a new country. So those, those were really meaningful times for me. [00:28:23] Speaker A: You're speaking our language here, Eddie. Thank you for that listening. [00:28:26] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:28:27] Speaker A: That's so good. We have a question. So we want to move from your, your own journey and you've shared a little bit about your experience with mentoring just by living that out. Let's talk about some of the present challenges among the various generations of immigrant churches. How have you seen these challenges affect the relationships among the generations? [00:28:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think this is a really, really, really important, big challenge that we have, you know, in my role now, I've been on staff, on denominational staff for 11 years. [00:28:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:58] Speaker C: So the first four years I served as the director for Latino ministries of the Reformed Church in America. So my work was mostly with a lot of our Spanish speaking pastors in the, in the Reformed church. And we had about 80 Spanish speaking churches in the RCA. So a lot, all of our churches, that's a big challenge. How do we, you know, how do we engage the next generation in ministry? Especially when it comes to, you know, all of these churches, their services are in Spanish. How do you engage the younger generation? That Spanish is not their first language, but also culturally, you know, they are Latino, they eat tacos and pupusas, but they prefer to speak in English. So when they come to worship, you know, worship, everything is in Spanish. So they feel that disconnection there because that's a big challenge. So that's one of the big challenges that our ethnic churches are facing with the, you know, with the next generation. How do we engage, you know, the next generation into the ministry of the local church? And we don't have the perfect answer to that. That's a question that during my time, you know, serving with them, we tried a lot of different things, like bilingual church services, like fully, you know, some churches, they had a service fully in Spanish, another service fully in English. But that has always been a challenge for the next generation. And I think this needs to be a question that we need to be wrestling all the time. I will say the context is different. So in my time now, what I'm doing right now, I'm encouraging them to really pay attention to the importance of, of the context that we're living today. So I think that churches need to be multi ethnic, but the language needs to be English because we live in the US and for the older generation, there has to be a service in Spanish. Before coming here, I was a pastor at Emmanuel Reformed Church in Paramount, California, and I was the pastor of the Spanish side of the church. And that's a large church. And we have every Sunday we had eight worship services. Five in English, two in Spanish, and one in Nepalese. So every Sunday was. And the question is, how do we integrate everybody to the life of the church? Because these were not three different churches. This is one church with three different languages. And that was a big challenge that we always had in our church. But. But that's one of the things that we need to keep thinking and wrestling with how to integrate the next generation. [00:32:06] Speaker B: I'm curious about that. I just want to pick up on something you said, Eddie. I think the way you've outlined it is exactly what we're experiencing with our congregations. And the challenge that I've heard among some of the racial ethnic leaders has been the leadership development aspect. So when we did a listening session with some of the younger leaders, one of their frustrations was they're not going to listen to me. They're not going to take what I say seriously. And then the harder questions or the harder comments that younger leaders make, and this is kind of across the board, racial ethnically is I feel like I can't be myself. And so I'm curious, you've connected your Ministry has been with youth. And so for listeners who are interested in just trying to make space for younger leaders, because that is part of the issue, I think, is that the younger leaders of immigrant leaders feel like they can't really truly be themselves. What did you learn? How do you do that? [00:33:12] Speaker C: Well, you know, for me, for me it was important to empower the younger generation. You know, empowerment is so important. And as the director of leadership development of the rca, because that was my. [00:33:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say you also tagged in leadership there for a little bit, Eddie. [00:33:31] Speaker C: When I came to denominational work with the Reformed church, I was a pastor of a large church and we had a lot of people, you know, serving in many, many, many capacities. So the RCA invited me to join in as the director of leadership development and Hispanic ministry. That's what I did, two full time jobs. So I had a, I always thought a principle that I called the, you know, the 70, 2010 principle of developing a leader. How do you develop a leader? You know, and you have to be intentional about it. So the 70% has to do with, you know, with a book, a class. So you teach a class, you give somebody a book on leadership, you invite people to take a webinar about leadership. You know, I would say that's the 10% of how you develop a leader. That's only 10% of developing a leader. [00:34:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:30] Speaker C: And then the 20% is coaching, mentoring. So that means that you bring someone alongside you, you walk alongside somebody that you are developing a leader. So you give a book and you invite this person to attend a conference on leadership. Conferences are good, but that's not how you develop a leader. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Amen. [00:34:54] Speaker A: Hello. Hello. [00:34:56] Speaker B: Change your budgets, people. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Come on. [00:34:59] Speaker C: So books are good, but that's not how you develop a leader. So those are good resources. And I'm not saying that we should not discredit all of that. I think that's really important. But more than a book or a conference mentoring somebody, that's twice, you know, of investing in a leader. [00:35:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:17] Speaker C: So I would say that's the 20% of developing a leader. But the 70% is the biggest part. So is that when you invite somebody to lead, it's like where you're teaching somebody to swim. That person will only swim when you just throw this person into the swing pool and just say, go for it, do it. And for me, that's empowerment. So empowering somebody to lead and just trusting that this person will, you know, will do a good job. And if this person doesn't do a good Job. Try again. Just keep trying. Keep trying. And that's how people learn. That's what I did in my. In my leadership as a pastor. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:01] Speaker C: You know, I was a pastor of a large church, and I only do. Did two things. I preach and I empower leaders. That's all. Everybody knew that that was my job. But how do you care for a church of 1,000 people? Well, I have an awesome team of elders. They do visitation. They do baptisms. I don't have to do baptism. Our elders did baptism in our church. You know, we had a great team of people doing a lot of work. So I preach and develop leaders. So I invested a lot of my time, my energy in people, because that's how. You know, once I was teaching a class on leadership, and it was really interesting for me to be in that church. There was a young person in that meeting, two young people. One of them stood up, and she said, can I say something bold? And I said, go for it. I want to hear what you had to say. Because. Because it was a church that. It was a church that I was teaching a class on leadership. And then she said, you know what? I love this church. My mother grew up here. My grandmother came to this church. So this is my family. This is my church. And it hurts that I see the church dying. We don't have. And this is a young person, maybe 20, 25. And I said, tell me more. And then she began saying how sad she was to see where the church was, because she said, I grew up here. This is my family's church, and I'm so sad to see where we are today. And then she said, why can I not be invited to lead in this church? And she's asking the question to me. And for me, it was like, okay, now we're gonna get in trouble. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:37:53] Speaker A: I'm kicked out now. [00:37:55] Speaker C: I don't know what I'm going to say here. And then before I could respond, there was an older person. She said, I can respond to that. And she said, you cannot leave because you're too young. Oh, no, you don't have experience. So, again, this is the reality of the church today. You see a young person. Why cannot we have an elder that does not have white hair? And that's the question I always ask. And for me was before I say something, I invited the pastor to say, can you give me permission to respond to this? Because this is his church. He is the pastor. So I don't want to say. But I said, you know what? Young people need to be invited to lead. Yes. Need to be invited to lead. Need to be empowered. To lead. Need to be coached, need to be mentor, need to be invited to take leadership positions in. In the church and wherever they are. [00:38:56] Speaker B: I mean, the thing that I was going to ask you, and you just beautifully laid it out, Eddie, is just the role of sponsorship. That's what we kind of call it in Generation Spark language, which is this idea that as leaders who are established, who have maybe some seasoned peppery hair, maybe you've been in your role for a long time, the way to help younger leaders feel like they can lead and give them permission is to say they have permission, and that's that sponsorship is being the leader who's willing to point out the very obvious fact that young people are not being empowered. And to be the one to say, I'm bringing you along with me. Let me show you. Let me open the door. Let me create space for you at the table. The other piece that I think you named really well, and I just want to continue to affirm this so that anybody listening can start to feel the permission to do this. I was at a meeting recently, and you said it so clearly, if we don't start empowering young leaders, we are in trouble. And I just. I was so grateful for you, because to have your voice, not only as a leader who has led youth, who has the experience to be able to say that, but also as the General Secretary of the Reformed Church in America, to say that and make it a priority, I mean, that has weight and power. And so I can only hope that that message continues to reverberate because it takes every generation to continue mobilizing young people. And I think that's what's missing is senior leaders recognizing the power that they have to elevate the voices of young people. [00:40:39] Speaker C: Yeah, that's important. Thank you for saying that, Anna. For me, that's crucial. That's important. Important. [00:40:44] Speaker A: I want to be sensitive to time. We've got a question, and this is a hope question. [00:40:49] Speaker B: I really am excited about your answer. [00:40:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:52] Speaker A: So what do you hope for the future generations of the church today, Eddie? [00:40:56] Speaker C: Yeah, my hope. My hope is that the leaders of today will invest time, energy, resources, money in the leaders of tomorrow. And the leaders of tomorrow will need to be mentoring, equipped. And I hope that the church will pay attention to that, see the importance that there are seasons in life. This is our season. You know, when I was a young person, you know, the church and the leaders invested in me. Now, in my time, I'm investing in leaders because I know that my season will be done sometime. You know, we're not here forever. And that is good. That is normal. That's a normal process of life. So my hope is that churches will be investing in the younger generation today so that they'll be ready to lead tomorrow, and they will invest in the next generation so that, you know, passing the baton is really important. I don't want to end my career with the baton in my pocket. I need to pass it on. You know, I need to give it on to the next generation. [00:42:09] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that. You're speaking my language because that's my heart, too. And I so appreciate you sharing that with all our listeners, with all our churches that are coming alongside, because I think you're spot on. We need to do succession planning. We need to do it well. We need to pass the baton on well. And I'm so, so grateful. [00:42:29] Speaker B: I feel like I know what our next, like, swag thing needs to be. It's going to be a little baton that says, hand me to somebody. Hand me over. [00:42:37] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Wouldn't that be funny? [00:42:39] Speaker A: That was so good. [00:42:41] Speaker B: You heard it here first, listeners. [00:42:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're going to wrap up in a moment. But if you were to think of a text, a scripture text that's been important to you in your life and you've talked about living it out and text that you think intersects with our call in this particular part of ministry. Well, what might be that text for me? [00:43:02] Speaker C: Thank you for asking that question. For me, a foundational text is Ephesians 4, 11 and 12. Can you find that, Anna? [00:43:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, you can find it. [00:43:13] Speaker C: That is a really foundational text for me in my ministry because it's a passage that really talks about leadership and talks about the next generation. It talks about those have been called in this season so that we can prepare them the next generation of leaders. Can you read it, Anna? [00:43:35] Speaker B: Yeah. It says this. So Christ gave himself to the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up to equip. [00:43:48] Speaker C: His people for works of service, so that the body of Christ, you know, might be strengthened, might be prepared, might be ready for ministry. So I always say that I belong to the 411 group of people, you know, pastors, teachers and prophets, apostles. So I belong to that group so that I am ready to equip the 412 group of people, which is the body of Christ. So if we are clear about that. I think that's important. So my job as a pastor, as a leader, it's not only to preach. And this is part of what I do. Preaching is part of what I do. It's not everything I do. It's part of my calling as a pastor. But the most important piece is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. And who are those saints? Are those younger generations that are raising up so that they can lead and prepare the body of Christ, which is the church. So for me, that is foundational as I lead, you know, as I do my work as a pastor, as a leader in the church. [00:45:07] Speaker A: That's awesome. Thank you. Isn't that gold? [00:45:10] Speaker B: So good. Yeah, I love that. [00:45:12] Speaker A: So one last question for you and then we're going to wrap up with final comments. If you were to think of a resource, maybe a book that's been so important to you and you think about your call into ministry, but also for the journey in which we might encourage other leaders to think about walking alongside young leaders and young people. Is there a resource or a book that you've read that you think, oh, this would be so, so important that I want to share with our listeners today? [00:45:38] Speaker C: Yeah, more recently, you know, I can mention a lot of leadership books, but more recently, you know, you should see his shelves. [00:45:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's overwhelming. [00:45:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I have a lot of books on leadership, but more recently, you know, canoeing the mountains are really crucial, especially when you are trying to navigate leadership in a place that doesn't seem like easy. Leadership is not easy. So that has been really crucial. I would encourage every leader to read A Canoe in the Mountains because it's a book that teaches about leadership in those places. Like today, we are living in a time that we had never lived before and leaders need to be, you know, ready to face those, those, those experiences. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Amen. Amen. Anna, any final words? [00:46:31] Speaker B: No, just thank you so much. This was really a really rich conversation. Thank you. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Eddie, thank you so much for making time for us today. We really, really appreciate you, you spending time with us and I'm feeling like I would love to have a follow up conversation in the near future. [00:46:46] Speaker B: Yeah, we're doing 2.0 after that. [00:46:48] Speaker A: Right. This felt really good. And I've got a lot more questions that are, are going through my head right now. But in the meantime, we just want to say thank you for being here with us and listeners. We just appreciate you joining us for these podcasts. Thank you for coming and we look forward to the next time we can spend some time with you. [00:47:06] Speaker B: Bye, everybody.