Empathy

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Generation Spark podcast. My name is John Simon. I'm here with my good friend Ron DeVries. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Hello, everyone. It's good to be here again with you, John. [00:00:11] Speaker A: It sure is. It sure is. And welcome to you, listener. Thank you for joining us for our show today. We're gonna be, you know, talking as we always do, just kind of joining the intersection of life and ministry under the context of intergenerational conversation. Love it. But first and foremost, we were talking about this just a few minutes ago before we hit play. If you were a dinner course, what would you be? And we were gonna answer for ourselves, but I think it's better to answer for each other. [00:00:42] Speaker B: I like that. [00:00:43] Speaker A: And I had one dinner course come to mind almost immediately. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Okay, John? [00:00:48] Speaker A: Sure. And it's clam chowder. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Oh, yes. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know, there's something about clam chowder that's just. It's rich, it's tasty, it's warm to the soul. It's something that you need on a cold day. And you've got a lot of cold days up in the. Up in Canada. [00:01:05] Speaker B: We do. [00:01:05] Speaker A: And I don't know. I don't know what? Like, I don't know. Like, we don't have seafood out here. We're in a desert. We're landlocked. We're real landlocked. I don't know where you guys are at for seafood. What's. What's Edmonton look like? Yeah. [00:01:18] Speaker B: So there's a. There's a robust foodie scene in Edmonton, and it's really cool. And it's interesting because our areas, our spaces are very similar. We're landlocked, and we are deserty as well, but extremely cold. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Right. In the winter time, it can be really, really cold. And so there aren't a lot of ocean. There's no oceans around us. Right. And so to get that seafood that. Get the clam chowder that you just described. I love clam chowder. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Fantastic. [00:01:48] Speaker B: You're right there. You were right there. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Where's. Before you get into yours, where have you had the best clam chowder? [00:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So East Coast. [00:01:57] Speaker A: East Coast. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Nova Scotia. Yep, yep. Had some out there. My kids were young. Monique and I took a drive out there. We. We had family out in Nova Scotia, and we decided to just take a ride along the seashore, that's the Atlantic Ocean. And take in some of that great seafood and some clam chowder. Yeah. I love clam chowder. You can't eat too much of it. I think. I think it's a lot like milk. Dairy. You can't drink a lot of. A lot of milk before you get a little you. Yeah. So. But clam chowder. Yeah, right there. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Great. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:02:29] Speaker A: I'm glad you're accepting it. [00:02:31] Speaker B: It feels good. It feels good. So one of the things that I know about you is this love of. And this is kind of an entree like the clam chowder is. And I'm thinking that you're also the entree a little bit with. With soup. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:45] Speaker B: And so I see you as a warm bowl of vegetable with meat soup. Meatballs. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Right. So these will be good sized meatballs and just textured with just a right enough spice. Right. And the noodles are not too big, but just enough to give a little bit of substance. And then the vegetables, just a well rounded, enjoyable comfort food moment. That's what I see for you. Which comes along with. Yes, yes. Get this. Not just the soup, the entree, but it comes along with a gently warmed biscuit or bun. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Right. And so when you take the butter and you just kind of open it up a little bit and you just spread the butter on. And we're not talking. We're not talking the margarine. Not that there's anything wrong with margarine. [00:03:33] Speaker A: No, no, no. [00:03:33] Speaker B: But we're talking real butter, just kind of letting it melt over the broken crumbles of the bun while you eat that soup. That, to me, is the way I see you. That's what I interpret for you. [00:03:48] Speaker A: That wasn't just an entree. That was a whole story. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Well, it really was. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like I watched a movie like that. Didn't it? [00:03:54] Speaker B: Didn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:03:56] Speaker A: Have you ever seen Babette's feast? [00:03:58] Speaker B: Love that movie. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. [00:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:03] Speaker A: That's what came to mind. And I was like. And then I thought to myself, if Ron has never seen this movie, this movie would. Would speak to your spirit. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. So, to me, when I think about Babette's fest feast. So if you haven't watched the movie, we're not gonna give it all away. No, but you need to watch it. It is a movie about. And I'll just give this brief summary about the love for and the ministry of a good meal. Right. And what happens in that movie is just remarkable. And so if you're listening for the first time and you've never heard John and I talk about things, just trust us. Just go do it because it's that kind of movie. So you're right. I think there's a significant good storytelling piece to that. And I think what you and I just did with the clam chowder and the soup and the bun and the butter just felt very much like that. [00:04:58] Speaker A: That was great. I love that. [00:04:59] Speaker B: So good. [00:05:00] Speaker A: Thank you, Ron. [00:05:00] Speaker B: Bob Batsfest. [00:05:01] Speaker A: So, Ron, what are we, who's our shout out for this week? [00:05:05] Speaker B: Our mission focused ministry that I've been deeply connected to is a group of people who are invested in youth ministry, specifically speaking of our Christian Reformed Church, what's called classes, youth ministry champions. I've been involved with this group of people who represent in their classes a voice for youth ministry. One of the things that to me is really, really important, John, is we need advocates on the floor of our regional gatherings that encourage and support and bring to light and encourage good ministry philosophies in within our youth ministries and the local churches. And these champions do that and do that well. And so their heart is about connecting local church leaders who serve in youth ministry, whether they're volunteers, whether they're paid to help them know that they're cared for and loved. [00:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:00] Speaker B: And so I work in giving some oversight to what they do. In fact, some of our generation spark coaches are some of these champions. So you've met Bret and Fig and a few others. So they represent their regions. [00:06:14] Speaker A: Oh, lovely. [00:06:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And so they do good, good work. Very, very gifted and talented. And I just want to put a shout out to them. Sometimes their work gets overshadowed by the busyness and of classes, meetings and the work that's being done there. But the reality is that they are such important leaders within their regions, and they do incredibly helpful work for the local churches. One of the things I hope they understand and one of the things I've shared with him before. You've seen the movie Rocky. I have, yeah. So Sylvester Stallone in the title role and that first movie, and of course, Mickey in that first movie was his manager, and he had to rope him in to come and manage him and do that good work. But one of the things that came out of that movie was Rocky was in there doing what he needed to do. Right. And Mickey was right there with him. [00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:10] Speaker B: Right. Mickey was in his corner. Mickey was there when he had to cut him and do all these things and support him and encourage them. And that's what I see these champions as, is these people that are the Mickeys to the Rockies. And so that's the good work that they do. And we just want to put a shout out to the good work that they do. Maybe I'm being a little biased, John, but I love them and I really want to make sure that everybody hears about them because they are dear to my heart. [00:07:37] Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. All right, Ram, we've talked about dinner. We've talked about ministry champions. How should we set the table for this discussion today? [00:07:49] Speaker B: So if this is the first time you're hearing us or this, you've heard us many, many times, we want you to be aware that our main focus will always try to connect life, the goings on, in the everyday ministry, in the context of the church setting. If you are a theorizer academic who think deeply about things, or a practitioner who lives in the everyday of the programmatic, we want to connect those things together in a space that really focuses in on intergenerational conversations. And so, John, you and I both live in this fear and we love this work. But we also realize that sometimes our conversations can lean one space or in another space. We're saying, no, no, we want to be a space where whether you are just living it or you're in the ministry of it, or you're thinking deeply about it or you're trying new things in it, we want you to be here with us to dive into these intergenerational conversations primarily focused on this idea of how do we do this and how do we do this? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:09:00] Speaker A: And thank you for doing that. And I believe our topic for today is empathy. [00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:07] Speaker A: There's some interesting pushback on empathy these days. Have you noticed that? [00:09:10] Speaker B: I have, I have. I was talking to somebody today about that. Now, today doesn't mean anything to you who are listening tomorrow, but the reality is, I think this is an everyday conversation. Right. Sometimes we run into times where do not confuse my wrestlings with something, with being over personal about things. [00:09:30] Speaker A: Sure. [00:09:31] Speaker B: Right. So it can be complicated. Right. Empathy is this thing where, John, if you're going through something, I genuinely want to be there and ask good questions to understand what you're going through so I can walk with you in faith in a better way. I think that sometimes the pushback becomes, I don't want to be personally invested, I just want to fix you or I just want to fix something. Right. And so I think that's where we see some pushback sometimes. [00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like one of the first spaces I was in that emphasized empathy pretty hard was actually when I got got into behavioral health where I worked for about five years before I got into ministry. And I remember watching this training. I feel like I've got this training, like, locked in my brain. Cause I've watched it so many times, and it was kind of like a scripted interaction between, like, a case manager and an older man who was clearly suffering from alcoholism. And, you know, she's talking to him about how things are going, and he's like, ah, whatever, you know, I'm not interested in these classes. I don't care about any of this stuff. You know, it's not a problem. And then there's one scenario where she's like, well, what's wrong with you? Like, do you realize that your alcohol is a problem? You're ruining your life, and if you don't stop, you're never going to get any better, and your family's going to be ashamed of you. And he just. He just gets up and walks away. And then there's another interaction where she's much more empathetic and, you know, she's asking questions and she's allowing him to have feelings even as he's being oppositional. And she's. You see that she's kind of slowly chipping the armor away until she can actually speak to kind of the heart of where his. His problems are. And it takes a lot more time and it takes a lot more skill, but it's ultimately that much more effective. And I feel like when people look at empathy and they kind of scoff at it, it's almost like they would prefer that first one where it's like, I want to make it clear from the beginning what my stance is. Your issue is problematic. You need to work through this. You need to fix whatever problem. Like, you're the master of this. Just fix it. But people rarely, rarely want to actually hear that because it doesn't make them feel heard at all. It doesn't make them feel seen as people with problems. It makes them feel as if, just like you said, they were a problem, they needed to be solved. And when you dehumanize someone like that, you get the results that you wouldn't hope to get because you've reduced a human being into just a situation to be fixed. And that can seem like the clearer route because you're coming down with a strong conviction, but you're also removing the person from the element, too. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Do you think that part of the pushback that we experience in this, and you described the tension really well, do you think part of that is connected to our lack of desire to become vulnerable? There's a vulnerability that can be difficult. One, because it causes us then to be, well, let's just say we are exposed. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Mm hmm. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Right. And so with that, then becomes this space of. Yeah, I don't know if I'm ready to go there. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:07] Speaker B: And so. So I'm wondering if for some people who may be doing some of the pushback is because of their own inability to be vulnerable or maybe not inability. Maybe it's uncomfortable. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Maybe a fear. [00:13:23] Speaker B: A fear? [00:13:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I think discomfort is also good. I think that there are a lot of people where there's just like, well, I don't. I don't want to go there. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:31] Speaker A: Like, I'm not. I'm not comfortable going there. [00:13:33] Speaker B: It's risky. [00:13:34] Speaker A: Right. It's very risky. Yeah. Because vulnerability is just that. Like, you're. You're kind of exposing a part of yourself, and depending on what your story is, depending on what your background is, that type of vulnerability could be really. Could be really jarring. [00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:49] Speaker A: You know? Yeah, I think that is a good point. I think that there are those who. And I also think that it just kind of goes to, like, our natural desire for quick solutions. Right. There is something really easy about looking. Some looking. I mean, I. So I'm very guilty of this. I should say that first because this is my vulnerability. My wife and I have such a typical ongoing conflict that I think is very typical of men and women, which is she'll tell me all these things that she feels like she has on her shoulders, all these things she's struggling with, all of her emotions, her feelings. And I'm like, all right, well, here's what you do. You call this person, you tell them how you're feeling. You request this day off for work so you can get some extra rest. You go on a walk tomorrow morning to know that you love walks. I'm just like, just fix it. Just fix it. That's no problem. But my wife doesn't want that. She wants me to be there with her. She wants me to see her in the midst of all of it. But it's honestly a lot easier to just say, okay, well, here's your solution. It's harder to have to get my. To get my hands hurt dirty. [00:15:03] Speaker B: If you would see us right now, you'll see that my right hand is up because I'm empathizing with you completely. I do the same thing. I've been married for. I'm not going to say how many years, but a long time. And I would say that that's part of my default, too. If my wife is dealing with something, my natural inconnate inclination is to say, okay, here's what you do. Here's how you fix it. I don't know if it's a male female thing, but I know that's how I'm wired. And my wonderful, wonderful wife will remind me often, stop doing that. Just stop doing that and just listen. Just be with me. And that's taken a long time, a long time for me to learn. But I think it really does kind of touch on what we're talking about here is this space to be vulnerable to a ministry of presence, this posture of graceful within or being, which is not always easy. In fact, I think it's difficult. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think that especially so both of us have pastoral experience. When I'm speaking to someone in my community who is challenging, who maybe has just a vice that is complicating their marriage or advice that is complicating their relationship with people in our church, I sit down with them and we talk, and they share with me their perspective. Now, this is. This is different from my situation with my wife. With my wife. I just want to give her advice because I want her to be happier with this person. I'm like, no, you're causing problems. And so that urge, that reactive kind of reflex of just like, I want to tell you what to do, like, I just want to tell you to fix it, is so strong. And I think that as spiritual leaders, there does need to be, like, the ability to direct, to offer, to give direction, especially when someone is really kind of outside of bounds. But if that's divorced from that listening posture and that empathetic posture, the results are not going to be on our side, because people really do. I mean, often I think people go out of bounds and people's behaviors do go kind of haywire because they've experienced feelings for a long time and never felt listened to, whether it was by their peers or their family or their spouse. So being that first person to say, I understand how you're feeling, like, I. It must feel very difficult to not feel cared for in this regard. Let's talk through that before I go straight to bullet points of what to do, you know? [00:18:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting you say that, because I'm immediately brought back to a moment when I was doing youth ministry many, many years ago, and there was this moment where you're walking with the young people and doing what you're just describing as the healthy approach to walking with somebody in faith. And then recognizing I'm not doing the same thing with my kids. And it took me a little while to figure out, hold on a minute. I should be right, just like with my wife and with others. And that was a big, big deal. Like, I mean, too often you separate the two existences in some way, you know, between your. Your home life, with your kids and your family and whomever is in your household, to the ministry, work or the living in a reality of just being empathetic and caring for and walking in grace. This. This posture of. And this is a growing. With reference, this posture of withing. This posture of walking with. Being a presence together. A ministry of presence that calls us to a genderless walking with. To this presence of genuine listening, this presence of not trying to fix their problems and just being an ear and a person with them, because that's just what they need right now. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I've been in. In some conversations where someone would kind of open up about a vice of theirs, and I would kind of challenge them. Mildly, not even in a pastoral context, more in a peer to peer thing. And their response would be, you just don't understand. Like, you don't understand. Like, you don't understand what's driving me to do what I'm doing. You don't understand what's driving me to feel how I feel. I think that when we take that listen first approach, then that's really. We're trying to meet them in what they deeply want. They don't want someone to tell them, do something different, because honestly, and especially if we're dealing with a believer, they probably know that they need to change. They probably know they need to feel differently. And there may be some shame that's building up. So when we say, fix it, they're like, how many times have I heard that before? Now I feel like junk. But if we were to say, that must feel really challenging. What are you going through right now? What's life like right now? How's your heart? How are you feeling? Because then we can kind of get to that. And I love that you mentioned Ministry of presence, because I'm also a part time chaplain for a hospice provider. And Ministry of presence is so crucial to the heart of what chaplaincy is about, because it's just recognizing that people, especially in really trying and vulnerable periods of time, which hospice is chock full of those moments. They just need someone to be there. And, you know, I would love to just be present with someone during a time when they feel extreme loneliness. Cause when you're passing. When you're about to die, you feel everything imaginal. Will you go through periods of shame, periods of fear, and during times like that, I don't want to be there, to be like, oh, you're ashamed. Well, here's how to not feel ashamed. Oh, you're afraid. Okay, well, let's work. Let's fix that. I can't fix all of these things, but I can be here with you. [00:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And let's not leave out the word that may fit into this a little bit is this sense of guilt as well. Right. So I may not have been the perfect person. So I do not want to be vulnerable with you, unless, of course, there's that element of trust to be with and say, no, no, I hear you. Right. I hear you. [00:22:09] Speaker A: Yeah. One thing I've started doing whenever I pray for my christian families who ask me to pray for them is I'll always kind of add that little like, God. I know that so and so wasn't perfect, and I know that so and so has made mistakes because I don't want them to think that my prayer for them is contingent on this christian lie, that they've been a perfect person. I want to be like, let me get this off the table immediately. I know, you know, God knows you're not. You're a guilty person. We're all. We're all guilty, but we're. We're praying for mercy that. That transcends that. [00:22:46] Speaker B: Thank you for doing that, John. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:47] Speaker B: I think that's such an important part of our work. Right. I have a friend of mine who was going through a tough time, and, you know, he knows what I do, and he understands my ministry work, but as he was going through the tough time, he says, you know, I just don't need you to be my pastor right now. I just need to be my friend. [00:23:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:09] Speaker B: And I got it. Right. I got it because it was more about here. Here's where you're wrong. Here's where you got to do. No, no. Just. Just be with me as I journey through this difficult time. That's what I need right now. Yeah. Wow. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:23:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So as we think about that, then, one of the things we typically do on these calls or these podcasts is where some of the scripture intersections that kind of jump out to us as we think about our call in this space of being empathetic, where did we see that in scripture? What might be a place that. That shows up for us, the one that. That kind of jumped out to me of course, was. Was the moment, that little text in. In the New Testament where it basically says, jesus wept. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:57] Speaker B: His friend had died. [00:23:58] Speaker A: Mm hmm. [00:23:59] Speaker B: There was this moment of loss, this divine presence. [00:24:03] Speaker A: Dude, I was just gonna say divine compassion. [00:24:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:06] Speaker A: Yeah. It's incredible, right? Like, there's so much weight in those two words, and it feels so contradictory to what we know theologically about Jesus being part of this perfect, harmonious godhead in the holy Trinity and all that. But when we remember his perfect humanity also, we think, yeah, this was a dude who. Because. Because weeping and tears feel like an expression of frailty, and that really was what it was. But it was Jesus not just expressing frailty. He was also positioning himself near the frailty of his friends and of those whom he loved. [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So here's what jumped out to me in. This is Jesus the divine. This is God in human form. This is an expression of his compassionate love for humanity. Jesus wept. Right. And this is God present with us experiencing this and in that loss. And then I think of the bigger picture and think, okay, there's a lot of stuff going on in the world today. Would Jesus weep? And I think he would. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:25:29] Speaker B: I think he totally would. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:32] Speaker B: And I think we're being called to a place of genuine empathy. I don't think we can be cold in this space. We need to reflect a heart of compassion. Right. And Jesus did that for us. He did that for his friend. I think he's doing this for us now in the world in which we find it. And so I don't think it's something that we need to push back on. It is this posture that we need to dive into. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Yeah. My good friend, our good friend Rod Hugin has often asked me during times when I just felt very overwhelmed by either my own circumstances or by someone else's, he would ask me, when's the last time you wept? Like, when's the last time you slowed down to really feel the weight of this in a way that Christ had? Because I can get mad, I can ball my fists, I can punch a hole in a wall if I want to and feel real macho. But when's the time you expressed your heart like Jesus did? And I think that's a good question for us, and I think it's a good question for even our listeners to kind of consider knowing that the variety of circles and seasons of life that you're in right now are probably extraordinarily varied. But, yeah, at one point, is Christ calling us to just kind of sit in our trouble and in the trouble of those we care about. And just think, okay, where is this? How can I let this go? [00:27:08] Speaker B: I saw Paul do that with Timothy. And I know on a previous podcast, we talked about Paul and Timothy's relationship. But one of the things that Paul talks about as his journey with Timothy continues in this mentoring relationship, and he says things like, fan into flame, this gift that God has given you. And then he follows up with words that kind of summarize, I know what you're going through. You're going through a period right now that's really tough. Just realize you're not alone. Right. God has been walking with you through your entire life. Things may not look perfect right now, but realize that God is with you. I know what you're going through. I'm here with you. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:52] Speaker B: This points us to a couple resources that John and I have been thinking about. And again, I know on a previous podcast, we had talked about the Fullers research around the growing young material. So, growing Young is this book that was published in 2017, looking at what are the six essential strategies for helping young people love the church. And in there, it talks specifically about relational ministries. What does it mean to empathize with one another and recognizing that we are called to journey together in a way that models empathy in a real way, compassionate. Journeying together and then growing with is kind of a follow up book, not really focused just on youth ministry, but on families and parents walking with their children as they go through the complexities of life, trying to understand what are our roles in these spaces. How do we respond, you know, when our young people are going through life changes, when they go through the various steps in life, moving from elementary to secondary to post secondary education, vocational choices and things like that, how does our posture shift in their own life shifts? And so, again, recognizing that there's much more at play here, I cannot continue to be just a doing everything for you parent for my kids. If they're in university or college, they got to step out on their own. Right? So what does that look like? And so, recognizing some of those things and. And just working through. Through those things in our own lives. So growing with really just touches on those two things. [00:29:30] Speaker A: So, can I tag one more? [00:29:32] Speaker B: Yeah, please. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Wounded healer by Henry Nouwen. [00:29:35] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Really kind of builds on this idea that if we want to be healers in our surroundings, in our context, we have to be able to access our own wounds. And so to sit in the empathy that empathetic state with others, we have to recognize not just what their hurt looks like, but how our hurt affects us as well. It's an extremely empathetic book, and it was written, like, 50 years ago, but I read it recently, and I think it's still just an absolute banger today. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Okay. [00:30:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, big fan. [00:30:09] Speaker B: So good. I love that. Yeah, I haven't read it. I now want to read it. [00:30:13] Speaker A: It's fantastic. [00:30:14] Speaker B: Okay. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really, really good. But thank you, Ron. And thank you to you, listener. We always appreciate you spending some time with us, and you'll hear from us again real, real soon. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Thank you. Bye.