Generational Politics and Trends in Voting

[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Generation Spark Spark Dialogue podcast. My name is John Simon, and I'm here with a good partner of mine, Mr. Ron DeVries. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Hey, John. Good to see you. Good to be with you. Yeah, it's been a while, but I'm looking forward to today's conversation. How have you been? You've been okay? [00:00:25] Speaker A: I've been all right. You know, it's been. It's been an interesting, I guess, summer. I don't know. We always say this, like, Tucson doesn't really experience the fall, so I don't know where you're at. Are you experiencing, like, the middle of fall, the end of fall? What is it looking like for you? [00:00:43] Speaker B: That's a great question. We are in the middle of fall. But there are pockets in the geography that the landscape that I live in that we've experienced this. Oh, I don't know how to describe it, but I'll do the best I can. This little white substance that falls from the heavens, not to be confused with manna in any way, but cold flakes of something that's called snow. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Ever heard of it? [00:01:13] Speaker A: Okay. Not. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't. I don't think I have. Yeah, thanks for that. I did. I did. I did learn that this is a real thing. I learned, listening to a podcast a couple weeks ago that when, like, the TV screen has static on it, that people used to call that snow. Did you know that? [00:01:33] Speaker B: They did. [00:01:34] Speaker A: I did not know that. I just thought it was the fuzzy static screen. So that was really interesting. [00:01:39] Speaker B: It's very interesting because that was before streaming and everything else that we consume visuals on TV sets or music. But yes, when we had the antennas on top of our houses or cables, something that was in the air kind of caused the snow happened on the screen. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Fascinating. [00:02:01] Speaker B: So it was so frustrating, especially when, you know, you were watching episodes, like the very last MASH episode that it was ever broadcast. I mean, who wants snow during a time like that where you're truly experiencing history? But, yes, that is a form of snow. That is a form of snow. That's not the one I'm talking about. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Okay. Different snow. [00:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah, different snow. The one I'm talking about is the one that. That gracefully falls to the ground and causes everything to be covered with this white, sometimes wet or kind of dry substance. Regardless, it is this cold thing called snow. And we, in this part of Alberta, we had some last week, and I just saw a note of a colleague in Minneapolis. They woke up to snow. Not a fun Thing in terms of my life as a person that let me see. Getting a little gracefully older. I don't appreciate as much as I used to, man. [00:02:59] Speaker A: Okay, that's. I've always heard that snow was kind of like this magical thing I have, like. So I'll just tell our uninformed listeners I've grown up in the desert my whole life. Sonoran Desert, to be specific. It's very warm. Like, when I say there's really not a fall or an autumn here. Like, for example, it was about 98 degrees a few days ago, which is pretty. Pretty stinking hot for the end of October today. It's in, like, the 60s, maybe the 70s, which has been nice. But we. We don't have trees that change colors. Like, our cactuses don't change colors, if that's what you're wondering. And so there's really no noticeable fall. There's like, this end of summer that kind of like, spurts its way through October and November, and then it's just slightly cold, and then it's just winter. But we don't. We don't get snow. We. We get snow occasionally. We're. We're about an hour drive from the mountains, and the mountains get a good amount of snow. There's even some SK Skiing and stuff up there. Oh, there is, but down here, I'll just share one example. When I was a freshman in high school, there was a snow day, which was technically illegal. I don't think that our mayor was allowed to declare it a snow day, because I guess in our bylaws of our school district, you just can't declare that you can't go to school because it wasn't that bad, but it was more snow. It was maybe half an inch of snow. And the whole town was like, what do we do? This is terrifying. It was like an apocalypse. And so the superintendent was like, please don't. Don't come to school. Don't. Don't even bother. And it was such a surreal day. But I'm sure if you were anywhere else in the country, they would have been like, oh, this is. This is not interesting at all. This is just another day, John, where we are. [00:04:55] Speaker B: We'll typically get snow starting that linger that stays in in November, sometimes end of October, and then it usually stays till March. And. Yeah. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Wow. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. The one time you came to visit us, remember, we went down to Canmore, spent some time there, remember? And we hiked those trails, and that was that gentle. That snow that was just starting to leave that. That's our reality all the time. We get snow for a big part of our life and I'm a little tired of it. I'm a little tired of it. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I've been in snow probably, I would say less than a dozen times in my life. Some of them have been here in Tucson, just like strange occurrences. And then like I visited the Grand Canyon when it was snowing one time, which is very cool, very pretty. Of course there is my time up in Canmore, but yeah, snow to me is still like, it still feels like a treat. It's kind of like this mysterious thing that I don't really. That I really don't know a whole lot about. I, the, the idea of driving in the snow is horrifying for me. I'd never want to do it in my life. I never have had to. So I feel like a very sheltered, you know, like, like I've lived a very sheltered life. [00:06:15] Speaker B: Ron, it's time for you to experience a little bit more snow in your life. I would, I would encourage you to do so. However, you know that that's your call. Your call. I'm not going to press you into anything. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:27] Speaker B: I'm not going to press you into anything. [00:06:28] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you for not pressuring me. I would love to. I've said before, the idea of being in like negative 20 degree temperatures, like my brain doesn't process that. Like when you say that, I can understand it, but I can't think of any experience to tie that to. Like, I spoke to a good friend of ours, Scott Bandy, who lives in Austin, Ottawa, and he said the same thing about like it being 115. Like for me I'm like, I know what 115 feels like. It's not great, but I know it. But for me, the cold and the snow, I just like to try. I'd like to maybe go on an expedition to the Arctic just for a few months of my life, just to get it out of my system and then I'll. And then I'll be good. [00:07:15] Speaker B: I had a former youth of mine explain what it was like to get off a plane in the Yukon. And when you get off the plane, it was so cold, it was about minus 50 that their pants froze as they walked. Right. And so just that feeling of the moisture within your clothing just kind of freezes up. That's what that cold feels like. So if you're looking forward to something like that, that would be amazing. That would be amazing. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Ron, did you ever see the movie the Day After Tomorrow? [00:07:48] Speaker B: Oh, I may have, but it's a while ago. Refresh my memory. [00:07:53] Speaker A: It's been a while. I just, it's. It's this movie about like this rapid climate change that brings like these hard freezes and tornadoes and I think Jake Gyllenhaal's in it. I just remember a scene where like there's a cold freeze that is like, you can see it passing across the horizon and like I think there's these dudes in a helicopter who were like free. Like, like as it comes over them, they just like freeze to death. Like they just turn into blocks of ice. It's almost like comical how it happens. And that's what I think of when I hear stories like that. Like you just open the door and this just like rush of white just envelops you and you turn into an icicle. And. Yeah, I don't know, it's not funny, but I'm like, wow, what is that like? [00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, kind of, kind of makes me think about the current climate today. I'll use that word just as an introduction to kind of where we're gonna go today. Right? [00:08:49] Speaker A: That was. [00:08:50] Speaker B: Right. That felt good. That felt good. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Wow, that was really good. [00:08:54] Speaker B: Talking about, you know, the world that we're living in today and yes, the political landscape on both sides of the border and different things around that. We're gonna be diving into that a little bit today, but before we do, John's gonna give a bit of a shout out. [00:09:09] Speaker A: I do, yeah. And I, I do and I will. And once again, fantastic transition there, Ron. That's why, that's why they pay you the big bucks. I'm just, I'm trying to get on your level, man. [00:09:19] Speaker B: You know, I just haven't seen them yet. [00:09:23] Speaker A: Well, we are going to be talking about political climate today as you can imagine. You know, the day of recording is actually Halloween, which is a day known for some, some other types of spooky things. But I guess politics can have its own little, you know, trick and treat to it. But. Yeah, so hopefully whenever we drop this episode it will be either right before or within a week or two of kind of the big climax of political, you know, voting days coming up pretty soon, election day. And so I wanted to give a shout out to an organization that I think really encapsulates just what I think is a great faith driven approach to politics. And it's called the and Campaign A N D. They have a cool little ampersand as their logo and the about page on their website would say that they are to educate and organize Christians for civic and cultural engagement that results in better representation, more just and compassionate policies and a healthier political culture. So I followed them for several years and I. They are based here in the States and they, they have a lot of focuses on things, redemptive justice. But really what it is is they're trying to kind of restore this integrity to being someone who has based their life in faith in Jesus, but is noticing that a lot of people who have put their faith in Jesus also seem to have this kind of like, you know, lowercase F faith in a political system, a political theory, or more often just political parties and leadership. And so it's like how do we break our loyalty to man made ideologies? And how do we more wholesomely put our faith in this eternal historic faith that Jesus has given us? And so what does it look like to have more civil conduct in how we talk across party lines? And how do we, you know, preserve the values on one side of the aisle that are biblical while also preserving values on the other side? And I just think they do really cool stuff and they've got a lot of literature and resources that you can check out. But yeah, highly recommend looking into them if you're interested in that at all. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Thanks, John. We want to remind the listeners if you're listening to us for the first time or you are a regular listener, we're just so grateful that you are. But if you're listening to this for the first time, our main focus will always try to connect life ministry, the theorizer and the practitioner into an intergenerational conversation. And sometimes those conversations may go into places that we've never explored before, like today's. But our hope, our hope in this is that the conversation will be God honoring and mostly that perhaps it's going to give all of us some food for thought as we think about the generations within this, within this context. So again, we just want to remind you of who we are, what we do and why we do it. [00:12:33] Speaker A: That's right. And this is kind of like an, I wouldn't call it completely like an offshoot, but this is a different kind of conversation that we've had. We're kind of, we're kind of, we're kind of going relevant just for this episode. So, you know, we, a big part of our, of our dialogue is often the conversation between generations in the church and a big conversation that most churches across Canada and the US and probably Mexico are having right now are very centered on politics. So we kind of Wanted to tap into that. So this might be a little different. I promise we're not gonna, we're not. We're not going woke, but we're also not going anti woke. We're just, we're just going. We're going Gen Spark is what we're going. [00:13:19] Speaker B: That's what. [00:13:19] Speaker A: Honestly, that's what we're. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how we're. That's how we're always going to be. So don't worry about that, guys. So I had this idea for this conversation and I think that, I don't know, when I think of one of the, I don't know, things that distinguishes the generations and one of the things that I see talked about a lot is just kind of voting patterns, how different generations have come to view politics, I don't know. So I'm just, I'm just really interested in that. And Ron, I'd love to hear your perspective and I'll be happy to share mine as well. But it does seem to be, and at times very polarizing thing. And I think that if we're, if we're really hoping to create conversations with people across generational lines, we have to kind of encourage that to happen even in spaces that feel a little uncomfortable, which means that maybe you have to listen to something that feels a little weird at first or be able to ask those types of questions and take that listening posture. But anyways. Yeah. So what strikes you first when you think of this topic, Ron? [00:14:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so immediately as you were going through that introduction, my mind went to comments that I've heard over the years. And maybe this is a generational comment, but maybe it's not. Maybe it still holds true, is that when you get together for family at dinners, you avoid conversations around religion and politics. And, and so, I mean, I can see that happening and have seen that happen within my own family. We. You just, you don't spend time diving into those, those topics. And yet there's something I think we need to do. I think there are things that we need to talk about partly because there's so many times we are influenced by one media and the media's changed. In my lifetime, before the Internet arrived, there were just. You had the newspaper, you had the television that may have included some snow on the screen and the radio. And so the feed that you received was pretty, I would say, for the most part, trusted in terms of what you heard. You aligned yourself with perhaps a certain broadcaster, but you could usually tell the bent if it was politically conservative or liberal. Thinking or more socialist in mindset, but you kind of lean into that space a little bit. I find today it's more complex. And as I think about the older generations, and I think about my own parents and people maybe in their age bracket, and I'm talking late 70s, early 80s, it's really difficult to, I guess, isolate, maybe that's not the right word, but I'll use that word for now. Where's a trusted voice around some of the topics that are related to the political conversations, especially around our leaders? I remember once being shown a graph of the different newspaper or news publications that I'm thinking about, the US Particularly, and how they categorize them into the different political realms. This is conservative, this is middle right, this is liberal thinking and those kinds of things. And that was helpful, but I realized that there was just a ton of them and they're probably discussing from their lens, but it made it complicated. It made it complicated. So I wonder often as we talk about this topic, how do we find reputable, trustworthy sources that help us determine some of the things that we need to vote on? I know that the US voting system is different than Canada. We have a parliamentary system here, and in many cases it's a first to the post kind of determination of who gets elected. And so we vote on the specific writings. We don't vote on the Prime Minister particularly, but we vote on the regional person who then represents that party. And so if we like that person personally and we resonate, but they're maybe not politically affiliated with the political party that we may have for years aligned ourselves with, we may vote for that person. Or so it's very different. Right. Or you just say, no matter who's in that position, we're going to vote for them because they represent that party regardless of what they think for the regional space. [00:18:25] Speaker A: And so in Canada, the Prime Minister is appointed based on which party holds the most space in Parliament. Is that right? [00:18:33] Speaker B: Correct. [00:18:34] Speaker A: Oh, I feel so good about that. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Really. [00:18:36] Speaker A: All right. I feel. Yeah, yeah. They don't teach us this stuff, Ron. We have to figure this stuff out ourselves. It was only last year that I found out that the Queen doesn't ultimately have free reign over Canada still. [00:18:47] Speaker B: Right. That's changed. [00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a big one. That was a big one for us, too. [00:18:53] Speaker B: Or the King now that's real. [00:18:55] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. Thank you. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Geez, I. Man, I had so many thoughts with what you were sharing, Ron. One thing that I think really stood out was how much the advent of the Internet has changed things. Like, I. I'm a big music fan. People won't see this because we're not. We're not doing a video podcast just yet. But, Ron, you have this background of a bunch of, like, classic vinyl records and things like that. And I often think about how the landscape of how we listen to music has changed, as the Internet has made so much music so much more accessible. And even, like, thinking of how streaming has made it so you don't have to buy an album to listen to it. You can just listen to whatever is available. And so it's like, I think back to my dad's era, where, and even, honestly, like, even when I was a kid, the music that you liked was what you could listen to, which either meant that your parents owned it and they would play it, or it was on the radio, but there was a pretty limited selection of what you could listen to. And now if I want to listen to Norwegian polka, you know, with a. With an emphasis on swing jazz, like, I can find it. And they may have 500 monthly listeners, but I can find it and listen to it, and that can be my new favorite band. And I think politics is in a similar place where there used to be, just like you said, there were a small handful of reputable voices that you could be kind of a fringe political individual. But for the most part, you're going to have to curb that to listen to kind of the spokesperson of this larger viewpoint that you have. But now it's like if you are a. An anarchist with a capitalist leaning and you want to establish an oligarchy that models the, you know, the Roman Empire, from Caligula to Nero, like, you can find someone on YouTube who will speak those exact views. And now you have a community. Now you have, like, kind of an ambassador who represents your viewpoints. And it's like, on one hand it's great because now there is so much more representation, but it's also like the fracturing has just gotten so much more and more severe. That, yeah, I mean, it. Some fringe views, I think, are better off not having as much spokesperson. I'll just say it. Especially when you get into the more radical kind of views. But, yeah, like, there's just. There's so much out there and there's so many voices. There's not just that. That small handful of people who can really kind of rally the people behind them. [00:21:55] Speaker B: So. And we're going to talk about generations now. And so when I think about the older Generation, and I'm not going to represent them. All I'll say is, you know, I know some of them and of course, you know, and they're kind of connected to. To us personally. But how does that. Like, when I think about some of our younger demographic, right, so the ones who are voting for the first time. So this year, you know, there will be a lot of those people who will go to the polls and maybe a lot of them just avoid the polls or. And do not vote at all. That. That's a possibility as well. But what's the mindset going in so. So with. With people, I would say maybe a little older than I am there. Was that the political alliance and you stuck in that lane, Right. And that's what they did. Very rarely do you see them shifting lanes. Right. And so as a younger generation person, how did they determine their lanes? How do they come into a place to say, yeah, I'm leaning into this Republican space or this Democratic space or, you know, maybe a socialist space that really isn't present on the voting patterns. But how do you determine. How does the younger generation determine which lane they're gonna actually go into? [00:23:18] Speaker A: I think that, like, the seed can be planted just the same way. Any other idea kind of comes about. Like, there's lots and lots of media available. Obviously, people kind of get political ideas from their spheres of influence, whether it's their family, their churches, their community, people they spend time with, the schools that they go through. But I think that what's unique is that to have like a more underrepresented viewpoint is no longer an obstacle because now that we have not just a more media savvy younger generations, but those who also have a ton of resources and just like, literally media in front of them, that now it's like, oh, well, this is an interesting view that isn't going to be represented on, let's say, Fox or msnbc, but I can find people who will represent this. And so I think that the starting point is much the same as far as, like, where these political ideas come from. But now there's just like so much in terms of, like, what you can follow and people who can like, kind of feed into and kind of stoke the flames of these beliefs, which again is really interesting because things like the ANT campaign which we just referenced wouldn't exist in a world that wasn't this media saturated. But of course, with that accessibility is going to create that same kind of openness for things that may be a little bit less savory, you know? [00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I wonder if, if America has space for a third or a fourth party. So, you know, there's many countries that do and then work and I know in our parliamentary system, right. We have many parties, parties and the determination. We've seen this in European countries as well where, you know, often they'll have to form a minority government that forces them to work together. Right. That forces them to find some synergistic energy around certain topics and work into that space. And I think about some of our younger generation and you and I have had many, many opportunities to explore what mission looks like, what missional living looks like and justice seeking. Do the two parties who represent the current climate in the US do they lean into some of those conversations? Because I think that's something that many of even our churches and multiple generations are looking for a sense of what does it mean to care for the other? What does it mean to walk humbly and to. So in those places where it feels right now either you do or you don't lean into this space of political thinking often I wonder if some of those conversations are missing from, from the current reality. And, and is there space for then another party to come up and say, listen, we're thinking of the other and, and we need to consider maybe we need to look differently at, at how we do things. [00:26:38] Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because, and I'll say, you know, if you're listening to this and you're really well informed into American politics and you're like, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. [00:26:48] Speaker B: He doesn't. [00:26:49] Speaker A: I probably, probably don't. I don't. Yeah, no, no, no, me. [00:26:52] Speaker B: Oh, you. [00:26:52] Speaker A: As far as I'm. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to, I don't, I'm not putting that on you, Ron. I think you're very well informed Canadian too. So, you know, you well rounded. So. Yeah, so just that, that preface before I probably, you know, make a fool of myself. But what, what I find interesting is I think that there is already this like, so I remember even when, when Joe Biden became the Democratic nominee back before he got elected, back in 2020, when there were a lot of people in that, in that wing who were disappointed because they were like, yeah, Biden's not a Republican, but he's also not really what we embody a Democratic candidates should look like. He's not, he's not far left enough for our preferences. And then I've seen kind of an interesting development on the other side of the aisle where People will see Donald Trump as too far right. They want someone who's a little bit more centrist, who can be, you know, who's not as far as he is. And so it's almost like there's already this development happening of like, well, there's, there's the Democrats and there's the real Democrats like I am, or there's the Republicans and there's the real Republicans like I am. But it's almost like nobody wants to split off because they know that to do that in a system that has been kind of forced to be two party for a long time, that's, it's sabotage. It feels like you're, you're just, what's the phrase? Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Is that, is that right? Okay. Yeah. But there's already kind of this sense of like, yes, this person bears my party, but they don't represent my values. And so that kind of creates this even more kind of, you know, tense situation of conflict where it's not just that the opposition is, you know, kind of the enemy, but there's even people within your party ranks who are basically just lukewarm, to use like a biblical term, who aren't, aren't. Who aren't really going to represent your values well. And so, yeah, I don't know, like, the hostility does seem like it's been growing a lot and there seems to be, yeah, this very like, polarized sense of, you know, like, like, I'll say, one of the big topics that I've heard a lot about just through political campaign commercials and such, is the topic of abortion, which is of course a huge hot button topic, one for evangelical Christians and mainline Christians and everybody in between, basically. But both sides of the conversation believe that their view is what's going to lead to health and prosperity and well being for women, and that they are the voice of the unspoken and the voice of the vulnerable. Like, there is no gray area there. There is like one person is going to say, I am the voice of righteousness. And that person is the voice of destruction and of big corporate power. And the other person's going to say the exact same to the other. And so it's like, man, how do you build a bridge when we're speaking in such extreme terms? Like, that is a really, that's a really tough place to be in. [00:30:20] Speaker B: It's interesting. This is the, in the last 12 hours I've heard that word lukewarm. And so I want to pay attention to that because obviously that's been thrown our way. And it makes me wonder if in the political divisiveness we're experiencing the space of lukewarmness in the middle, and they're not sure how their voices can be heard or that they're wrestlings and, and wonderings can even be tolerated within this, the scope of the polarity between the two viewpoints, which are so, so separated. And so as you were talking, what came to my mind, and I'm not sure if we've seen change in this, but I do think so. I wonder if that's inhabiting our consciousness congregations right now, that same mindset. [00:31:29] Speaker A: I think so. [00:31:31] Speaker B: And if that is truly what we are also experiencing in that space, how then can those who are battling listen for those who are passionately wondering in the middle? Yeah, and I guess I'm just voicing a concern because I, I understand where we can come to those. Those platforms of disagreement, but yet there's a. A vast amount of people within our, Our, Our two countries and then probably within our churches that are feeling like, I. I don't know where I can share or even talk about some of these things in a safe place without becoming ostracized or without becoming embattled in something that I think needs to be talked about. And so, I don't know, are you seeing that in your context as well, in the Southern United States and some of our churches where we're seeing this great divide, and yet, you know, we're certainly wanting to care for those who maybe don't feel like they have a voice and yet, you know, need to be heard as well. Just wondering, what are you experiencing? [00:32:54] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a great, great question. I think that. I think that something you said earlier in our conversation, Ron, really stands true, which is the whole, you know, the kind of joke about not wanting to go home for Thanksgiving dinner because Uncle Mark's gonna be there and of course he's going to, you know, talk about politics and make things really awkward. So it's weird to think that, like, in secular or family even settings, religion and politics are no, no topics. But even when we gather to celebrate our religion, politics continues to be a no, no topic, which to me seems to indicate kind of a lack of intimacy, maybe a lack of trust that we have as cause. I think it would be strange to expect that because our faith is the same, that we have become this, like, homogenous glob of, like, everything. We like the same movies, we like the same, you know, pasta dishes, we like the same political things. Like it Would be strange to think, like, oh, well, we're all the same. But it does seem to indicate a lack of health. I think, to put it really plainly, that there is still, like you said, this discomfort of, like, well, I'm afraid of talking about what I really think because, you know, and what's interesting is the church that I worked at for many years, we had a lot of people come to us and would say, like, wow, I've never been into a church where I felt more comfortable not fitting so neatly within the conservative Christian kind of package, which was a really cool thing. But I often think about. We had a family leave our church because the husband was in law enforcement. And of course, around 2020 and 2021, there were a lot of conversations about law enforcement in the kind of cultural sphere. And when the church kind of picked up those conversations, he started to feel really like, look, I understand what you guys are doing, but this is a really sensitive topic for me, and I really don't want to feel, like, demonized for my role, especially because I feel like I'm trying to contribute something positive here. And so it's like. It's like we. We corrected something so well that we actually made it unsafe in a very different area. And we didn't go hard enough to say, hey, it's amazing that you feel this way and that you feel safe and cared for, but we also have to make sure that this guy also feels safe and cared for. And I don't know. I reflect on that a lot. I think, like, man, I think that we were so excited about creating a church that was so unique in terms of its political palette that I think that we. We almost took a few things for granted and that we didn't. We didn't. We didn't care as well as we could have for that family in particular. So. Yeah, I hope that answers your question. That was a lot. [00:36:12] Speaker B: No, no, that's good. I think it just kind of highlights the complexity of this. Right. It's. It's not easy, but yet there's this ministry of presence. We go back to that because this is something we've talked about before. And are they connected to that is our posture of listening? What does that look like for us? Because I. I do wonder. And we talk about this often with Generation Spark, is that there's these. These levels of listening. And there's a colleague of mine that developed this. We didn't, but. But they said we can share this. But this idea that sometimes we're. We're listening with the With a response already in our head. So we're not really listening. Right. It isn't this, this true space of trying to. The word we'll use is empathetic, empathize with the pot, you know, the place of where that person's coming from to better understand. And so our default, of course is. And I've seen people do this, right? They, they pretend to listen, but they already have their answer in place before they. And so that can be harmful. I've seen it in my own life. And I wonder if what we're saying, what we're maybe offering this idea that Jesus often listened and spent time just being with the world and it looked very, very difficult, different politically. And he spent time with, with many, many different people, always pointing to the heart of the gospel, which was right, you know, the, the life of Jesus Christ and the death and the resurrection. Because I think that has to be central. That has to be central in the conversations. But that didn't prevent him from being with. [00:38:11] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, I, I remember, I watched it was like a little series of hour long documentaries and I think it was called Hate Thy Neighbor or something like that. I'm not sure if I can give it a full endorsement. It seemed pretty vulgar. If I remember correctly, we're a Christian program, so PG or bust. But they did an episode where they highlighted this man who lived somewhere kind of remote and he had affiliations with this basically kind of like a neo Nazi organization and you know, obviously had some really awful, just very backwards beliefs. And as you're kind of getting to know this guy and getting to know his story a little bit, he, you know, discusses that, oh, of course, he's a church going Christian, which as I'm watching, I'm just like cringing through. And they introduce his past pastor who I'm like afraid is going to be just this like really unhinged white supremacist extremist guy. And he's. And I remember laughing because he was the pastor, was wearing a T shirt to a, to a musical band that I really liked. And I was like, oh man, now they're gonna be tied in with all this junk. And they end up interviewing the pastor after you see some of their interactions and you realize the pastor's not an extremist at all. He's just a very humble, loving guy who recognizes that in the midst of this man's pursuits that are often very unhealthy and rooted in a lot of like traumatized, insecure behaviors that have led to these ugly, evil ideologies, he sees someone who is genuinely looking for something deeper in the gospel, the goodness of God. And so when they ask this guy, this pastor, like, how do you let this guy just be around you? And his response was basically like, well, listen, like, he knows where I stand on his views, and he wants to have a presence in my life, and I want to have a presence in his. Because at the end of the day, all I can really do is set my table and hope that he joins me and just, you know, pray that God continues to change this guy. And what was beautiful was that by the end of the episode, you actually start to see that this man, who's kind of this centerpiece of this ugly viewpoint is really not as sold out in it as you. As you might think, and that he's really starting to, like, you know, just feel a little conflicted and start to really think through it. And I'm thinking, like, how valuable is it that this pastor who was probably, like, in his late 30s is just like, yeah, this kind of sucks that we have, like, this guy going to our church. But also, what would that look like if we just slammed the door in his face and said, no, no, no, not you. You can't be here. But to be able to safely and with wisdom be able to say, no, you can come in, like, you're going to hear about what I think, you know, and we're going to. We're going to disagree with each other, but you still have a place at the table. And I think that that's just so, so cool. [00:41:33] Speaker B: You know, as pastors, you and I have both reflected on the book by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Life Together, and, you know, the impact that some of the writings from his own life has had. When we think about community, Christian community. I'm just preparing for a sermon on Sunday, and I was pulling out a quote from. From him, and it just feels so appropriate just to share it here. So I'm just going to share it here as we kind of wrap up our time. And this is what he said. God loves human beings. God loves the world. Not an ideal human, but human beings as they are. Not an ideal world, but the real world. What we find repulsive in their opposition to God, what we shrink back from with pain and hostility. This is for God, the ground of unfathomable love. Yeah, when I read that and I was thinking about this conversation, I think about, you know, just the. The world that he was living in, the polarity thinking, you know, in terms of the Second World War and His call to faith and living out the gospel in a very, very difficult time, that he had the wisdom to share this in that context that's still so appropriate today when we think about our call to live out as faithful beings, as Christian people, to trust in God's holiness and his mercy, and yet to just live being present and shining the light of Christ in every element of our world and sometimes even in the political realms, that may cause us maybe difficulty and frustration and pain, and yet it seems like that's part of who we are and what we need to do, as difficult as that may be sometimes. But, yeah, yeah, I just need to share that, because that just kind of came to my mind as you were talking, and I thought, yeah, I do wonder if that wisdom still applies today. [00:43:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think that if you're listening and you feel like no one understands just how challenging it is to be in a place where the Christian church is in the midst of so much political turmoil. Bonhoeffer understands, like, to be a German in the midst of the Nazi overthrow, a German pastor, and witnessing this divide where some of the churches were very, like, much co signing the Nazi ideology, and others were standing against it like he was in the midst of this horrible, like, complete cultural revolution that was happening. And so for him to be able to write about the beauty and value of meaningful community, knowing that that community will and will definitely involve people with some unsavory viewpoints, that carries a lot of weight. That carries a lot of weight. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it does for me, too. Thank you for sharing that and thank you for this conversation. I know it's not always easy. We didn't really know where it was going to kind of land, and it feels like we received a good word, and that was. That was certainly, certainly helpful for me. Thank you, John. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, of course. Hey, thank you, Ron. This is always, always a pleasure when the two of us can chop it up. Yeah. [00:45:14] Speaker B: Any final words for our audience as we wrap up? [00:45:17] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Well, you know, as always, we appreciate you guys a lot. We. We know that we're. We're still kind of a tiny podcast getting off the ground, and we're learning the fine art of podcasting. But we're just so excited to have you with us. And as always, if there's any information that you're curious about to know more about our program at Generation Spark, or if you'd like to know what it looks like for your church to get involved in that, we're going to have all the information you need in our show notes, so just check that out. And again, thank you so much for. For being a part of our conversation today. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Thank you, everyone. Blessings. Until next time. [00:45:56] Speaker A: All right, take care. [00:45:56] Speaker B: Bye.