Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Generation Spark podcast. My name is John Simon, and I'm here with my wonderful co host, Ron DeVries.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Hey, good to be with you all. John, good to see you again.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Good to see you again, sir.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: It's been a while.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: It has been a while. It sure has.
Yeah. So this is our. This is the episode two of our podcast. Kind of become one of the. One of the outreaching branches of the generation spark tree, where we kind of discussed life and ministry in an intergenerational conversation. And so. But I always love our little hooks that we start with where we kind of chat about some fun things. So what's a podcast? You're really hooked in right now, Mister Devries.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Well, John, there's been a few that I sporadically jump into, but the one that's got me hooked, a colleague of mine encouraged me to jump into just because of the storytelling within it, but also just the real life stuff that's coming out of this. And the one that I've been soaking up right now is called the witch trials of JK Rowling.
And so, as many people may know, that author's name for, of course, the books of Harry Potter. And so she's had her own moments of infamy and fame, but just a few years ago, she was pushing back on some things within the twitterverse or x verse now, I guess, and that has kind of brought her into the public opinion eye for a variety of reasons. Some she, I think, is okay with, but some that has been pushing her to places that have probably felt a little bit uncomfortable. And so, as I'm listening to this podcast, and I think I'm taken with her story, her story of. Of humble beginnings. But then, and I'm not going to give everything away here, John, but I think the big thing that I'm taking away right now is just how difficult it is to navigate the complexities of life sometimes even if we're famous or not famous, for a variety of reasons, of course. So that's a podcast I've been jumping into. And when you have a long drive ahead of you or flight, you know, it's easily an hour and a half per episode. And so it's not easy listening, but it's one that's sucked me in a little bit.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: It's fascinating. I've listened to a couple episodes because my co pastor recommended it to me. And it is, I will say, yeah, what really grips you is her story, because when she gets more into her story, and I had no idea a lot of the things about what her life looked like before Harry Potter fame came along because I guess, I don't know, we just kind of were accustomed to assume that someone who found fame was maybe just doing pretty well or they had resources that rocketed them into that fame, but that was not the case for Mister Rowling. So I think it's fantastic and I would definitely encourage people to listen to it. But it's not, like you said, not easy.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: No, it's not. And I'd say if you are going to listen to it, listen to it with not a critical ear, but just one that recognizes that life can be tough and where she's gone, where she's come from and what she's currently living within hasn't been easy for her, but also for the listeners and those around.
[00:03:40] Speaker C: Agreed?
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Agreed. Well, mine's not. Not quite so heavy. Mine is a podcast I've been listening to probably since like 2017. It's called stuff you should know. Oh, you ever heard of it?
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: I love that podcast.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: It's so good.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: It is.
I think if there's ever a podcast that lives off of the charm of the co hosts, it is that show, because they'll just be like, let's talk about why traffic lights exist. Let's talk about why they put cotton in Thailand bottles. Just this random stuff. But they're. They're so endearing and they're so informative. And I'm just like, man, I love this show.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: And, and those are good questions. Why do those things exist?
[00:04:23] Speaker A: I don't know. I have to watch the episodes, right?
[00:04:26] Speaker B: I know. That's so good. Yeah, yeah, I gotta listen to more of those.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: I. Yeah, I just listened to one that I. I think it was like, why are. Why are school buses yellow? But then they'll do, like, surprisingly heavy ones. Like they did one talking about kind of the. The history of lethal injection as a capital punishment.
And they spoke of it in a way that was very informative, but also pretty critical, I suppose, which I'd never heard that view before. So I was like, oh, this is interesting. But, yeah, good stuff.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: So that brings up a question for me, and this is not in our script right now, John. So just so you know, we're going a little bit off script. So why do a lot of countries have their steering wheels on the left side of the vehicle and others on the right side? I'm realizing that it's partly because of the. The side of the street they drive on.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: But why can't we all just be on one side of the street.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: I don't know. It's really hard because you guys are, you guys are still. You guys are on the american side, right?
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Oh, no, no. You guys are on the canadian side.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: I don't think that's accurate.
[00:05:29] Speaker B: No. You don't think so?
[00:05:32] Speaker A: I mean, it's hard to ask an american why we don't do things that the rest of the world does, because remember, we still follow feet and miles.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: I was gonna bring that up.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And I don't have a good answer for this. Maybe the medical system, maybe. Okay, I'm not sure.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: We're not gonna go down that conversation today because the medical system in the two countries are very, very different and so probably don't want to go there either today.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: There's not a lot of wars I can win between you guys.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's not a matter of winning. It's more coexisting.
You okay with that?
[00:06:08] Speaker A: That's really good. Yeah, I like it.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Hey, you got a shout out for us today. Oh. A dentistry. That's close to our hearts.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I thought of it. I've been a fan of this ministry for a while, and honestly, I'm not sure if it's accurate to call them a ministry or a nonprofit because I'm not actually sure. But they're called friends of friendless churches and they're a non profit in the UK and they are committed to preserving old churches all throughout England and Wales. And so they just have this deep belief in preserving, like, kind of architectural heritage. Because a lot of these churches, like, they're in very remote areas where there used to be, like, villages and communities that don't exist anymore. And they've just completely atrophied over the years. And, you know, they have guides where you can visit some of the churches that they're working to preserve, but they're also really, really involved at telling the stories of these churches. Like, I've, I've read stories that had to do with, like, the, the pastors, couple hundred years old, but the pastors of these churches and the experiences that they had. And I just think it's so interesting. And I've never been to England. I would love to go so I could visit some of these churches and just to really support what they're doing. But, um, I thought the cool thing about that was they believe in preserving the stories and the heritage of something that's beyond our current time. And I thought in the context of Jen Spark and in the context of our intergenerational conversation. We often speak from the viewpoint of making space for the youth, which I think is very, very important. But I also think, like saving these stories, like continuing to make these old stories, letting them not be forgotten, I think is such a cool thing, too. But I just love the idea of preserving a cultural heritage. And I just love churches. I love physical churches. So shout out to friends of friendless churches. That's a wonderful organization.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: I love that. So my wife and I went to the Netherlands about a decade ago. It was her first time. I'd been there before. And one of the things we did was visited some of these old churches in the Netherlands. There was one congregation, one church building that had been there since 1200 and the year 1200. And so when we were looking at that, and actually it said right in the plaque, the old church and the one down the street was built in 1500 and that was the new church.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:08:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I know, right? It's just incredible. And just to see the architecture like you said, and to preserve that and the stories connected to it, such an important part of the work. So thanks for bringing that up.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Of course, of course.
[00:08:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: So we've talked Genspark, we've talked podcasts, we've talked friends of friendless churches. What should people know as we get into our conversation here? Ron?
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Yeah, so if you're listening for the first time or you've heard us a few times now, we want to make sure that when you hear us, our main focus is always about trying to connect life, to connect ministry. And I'm going to say we're here a theorizer and a practitioner. So all four of these spheres, all four of these dynamics, when we think about intergenerational ministry into the conversation. So we don't want to isolate anyone. If somebody's just doing life stuff that's intergenerational, that's great. But we also want to include the ministries of the church. You know, if they're thinking about intergenerational ministry, we also want to include those who are thinking about intergenerational ministry, whether they're writing on it or teaching on it, and those who are doing it every day in the church, if it's your calling or whatever that may be. Our main focus is to always trying to connect these four things into an intergenerational conversation. And that is our hope that as we think about the work that we're doing with generation spark around mentoring and discipleship, that if you're coming from any one of these spheres, that you are welcome here and that we invite you to join in this conversation with us.
[00:10:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: Thank you, Ron. I think that was a great way to kind of set the table for us today. And we're talking pecking order today. Is that right?
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Yeah, that is. And this is a phrase that you brought to our attention.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: And it.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Team meeting once, and. And you said, oh, I want to write about this.
[00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It was so interesting because I. This was. This was just kind of like chit chat in one of our team meetings. And our dear friend Christine was telling us. I wasn't very familiar with the phrase pecking order. I'm not a. I'm not a chicken raiser. I'm a city boy.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, neither am I. Neither am I. So it was foreign language to me, too.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: Yeah. But I was curious. I was like, what is this pecking order idea? And Christine Decker said, well, the thing is, when you introduce baby chicks into, like, a community of chickens, you have to do so very intentionally, because if you introduce new chicks into that community too quickly, the mother hens, who are obviously very protective, you know, hence the name, will potentially kill the new chicks because they see them as, like, invading forces. And so this idea that in a chicken society, like in a chicken coop, there is this pecking order of a natural kind of biological hierarchy of those kind of from the top who may be gatekeeping, those at the bottom, away from having too much power or influence to protect the herd, to protect everyone.
And I thought, this is a relevant thing, you know?
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Like, there's a reason there's so many, you know, analogy. I mean, Jesus is talking. So many parables come from just nature. And I'm like, this really seems to fit. And, you know, I think I'm grateful. I have heard some ghost stories about young people in churches not really fitting in fort. I've heard no stories of homicide, which I'm very grateful for.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: I'm so glad.
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Very grateful for. But I do think it's these stories of, you know, we were talking a little bit earlier about kind of the complicated blessing of involved high school groups or of campus ministries, where they commit themselves fully to these young teenagers and young adults, and they give them activities and they give them community, but more importantly, they give them purpose. They give them a role to play. They give them a person that they feel like they are. They give them a place in the community, and then inevitably, they age out and they graduate from college or they graduate from high school, or they get to the age of 18 or 19 or whatever the case may be. And now all of a sudden they're just one face in a sea of adults. And it's not uncommon for that to kind of feel like a little marooned. And in the worst case scenario and scenarios that I do think are possible, they'll be in, they'll carry that feeling of I matter, I have a voice, I have influence into the larger congregation, and that's when the pecking order comes down and it's like, whoa, hold on a second. You know, like, you haven't been here long enough to quite say things like that. You don't really know how things work. I'm not saying this to hurt you. I'm saying this to protect the herd, to protect the community, because you don't quite know how things work just yet. And so there comes this, like, kind of gatekeeping. And I don't even think that, you know, is by default a terrible thing, but what it can do is it takes that sense of belonging, that sense of having a voice that these young people who are just kind of resurfacing in a new church context. And it's kind of saying, actually, no, you don't have that here.
And it creates that feeling of isolation.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Don't you think that there's a lot of times where, and I'm thinking of a number of congregations within our sphere of connection and I can easily, and I'm going to just push back a little bit here. So let's have a little bit of a conversation about this, that sometimes when a church is established, let's say, for example, a church plant. Yeah, a church plant or a merged church or something where it's fairly new, they come together under a cult vision. So, so they're saying, no, no, this, this is who we are. This is our identity. And then when somebody else shows up and challenges the norm. Right. Which kind of gets into this pecking order space, sometimes we resist that.
[00:15:12] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Right. Because there's this, this natural resistance to say, oh, no, no, no, this is not what we intended.
What do we do with that?
[00:15:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, well, I.
I think in any community, I mean, I think, I don't have kids yet, but I imagine it'll be like this at a certain point.
Any community, family, any place where there's leadership dynamics, you need to be able to learn how to accept the voice of someone else and even not, like, assume it's right. Like, you don't have to say, oh, yes, you're clearly right. We're going to uproot everything we've done for 50 years and change it. But there's a way to do that that I think still affirms and still gives someone that place. But it's like, I think that where this pecking order becomes most dangerous and most potentially damaging is not when the voice of the person being pecked, quote, unquote, is like, trying to overthrow, but it's when it kind of comes from a good place. But the old guard is almost, they're trying so hard to preserve what's been that they don't want to listen to voices from the outside. And, you know, like, we talked a little bit in our last episode about, like, what do we do with this changing of the tides? What do we do with, you know, acknowledging that maybe the way that things have always been doesn't always mean that it has to continue to be that way and we need to listen. So, I mean, I think, I'm very sensitive to what you're saying, though, Ron, because I've been a part of those young church plants where somebody kind of kicks the door down and says, I'm going to bring a bunch of new change that's going to be good. And it's like, well, hold on. We don't quite need that, but we want to make space for those types of conversations.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: And I've had it, too, where, you know, as a young person or maybe even an older person, you know, coming into a new context, I got this idea, I want to bring it to you. And they said, we tried it. Forget it. Will not listen to that right now.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: So there's this, this moment of, of being dismissed, which can be painful.
Right. And I don't think we're necessarily saying that we do that all the time, but it does show up from time to time.
[00:17:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Right. And so it becomes, like you said, this gatekeeping space, which I don't think they, they intentionally try to cause that separation and say, no, no, you're not value not heard. It's more of, hey, we've been down this road before.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: You know, we've talked about this many times and you don't know my, our context. Like, we know our context. And so, you know, it'd be good to talk about this. Why can't we talk about it like that?
[00:18:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: And try to learn from one another to listen to the voices of all the generations, to listen to those around us, to say, oh, yeah, no, no, no.
Here's how we actually went through this. To take the time to do that.
I think it's hard to do because we are so consumed by the next thing on the agenda. We're consumed by. This is taking too much time. Right. And then we also get caught up in the. I'm just tired.
[00:18:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: And I think, too, like, if the only time. If as a leader or as a pastor, the only time my congregation hears my voice is when I'm saying no to their ideas. That's a leadership issue. Like, that's me not having. Not. Not investing enough in them relationally to where they can see anything aside from the part of me that is just trying to protect the vision. Because the balance is. You're right. We do have a responsibility as leaders to protect what we have. And we do carry wisdom and insight from being behind the curtain that a lot of other people don't have. But if we can't create space for these conversations that could potentially shake things up, then people are just gonna eventually kind of give up and stop trying to speak into that.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: I wonder if part of what we're experiencing post pandemic, finding it difficult for.
For people to find volunteers in the church, because that. That seems to be something we're running into right now is kind of rooted in this a little bit too. Right. They've heard the experience of someone else and. And they don't want to go through that themselves or they're just tired. I don't know if I can go through this again. And yet we need the elderly leaders to help us navigate, because they were the wise sages for so many years to help us. But I do wonder then, John, if maybe the solution word is not the right word here, but could there be a place within the dynamics of the leadership, of the pecking order, if you will, within our bodies be a place where we intentionally walk alongside together with a younger person.
[00:20:22] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: In church leadership. So as an example, what would it look like for John Simon, for example? And I know you do this, so I'm just using this as a good example to say, okay, there's somebody within our congregation that is going to come alongside me as an intern.
[00:20:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Right. To. I pour into this person, and this person pours into me. And so we decide to, in life together, to wrestle with some of the challenges that's in front of us when it comes to leadership or whatever. But it's a learning experience together. Right. That you're not carrying everything alone.
It's a process by which we are both encouraged, edified, and maybe even I would say it's a life giving moment.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: I mean, I think you hit on something that was really powerful there, Ron, because you mentioned that there's a mutual loneliness. That's remedy, because I know a lot of leaders who do feel like it is lonely to be the one who has to protect and safeguard the vision of the church. And it can feel very lonely when you feel like you are just telling people, no, this doesn't fit. No, that doesn't work for us. No, that's not our context. And that can really get under your skin, too. So then it's like, well, what if you intentionally made time to spend, you know, spend room in your life with someone who is from that kind of outside, but who has the energy and who has the calling even to participate in that type of shaping of the church, but they just need the wisdom to get there. And so now you two are doing it together, and you're not, you know, you're not giving them the steering wheel that they're not prepared to drive with yet, but you're taking them out on lessons. You know, you're taking them to the parking lot and you're, you know, showing them how to tap on the brakes and all that. Now you can both serve each other in that way.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: That's, that's beautiful picture.
Scripturally, I keep thinking of, where did this show up for us that we might be able to say, oh, that's what that looks like. Yeah, right. And so immediately I'm drawn to Joshua and Moses.
[00:22:36] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: Moses in his calling to bring an israelite nation out of Egypt and to do this long, long journey with thousands and thousands of people who were frustrated, difficult to get along with, at times, stiff necked. I think that's what God said about them at one point.
And then realizing, and actually Moses father in law does this thing to Moses where he says, yeah, I'm just. Moses says, I'm going to judge the people now. I'm going to take and listen to their concerns and everything. And what does he say to him? He says, that's not a good idea. You need to assign people to help you do this well and develops this leadership structure. But as he goes on, that learning, I believe, was embedded in him, because he pours out that same kind of mindset to Joshua later in life and said, don't carry this all yourself. God is walking with us. That much we know. That's been evident in our journey coming out of Egypt. But even before that, and so as I leave this EarThly existence, you will have this calling in your life to lead this nation in this particular stage of its existence and do so by continuing to follow God.
[00:24:02] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: And then Joshua, at the end of the day, when we come to the end of that book, Joshua says to the nation, you know, we're here, we are called to live this existence as God's chosen people. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah goes on. And he says, if you choose to follow this God or this God or this goddess, but let me just tell you, I'm going to follow this God.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: And as for me and my household, we will follow this God. And it was a beautiful picture of just that. Continued navigation around okay, we realize it's Difficult. We realize that there's a lot at stake here, but I'm going to walk faithfully with this God, and my household is going to do that. And I learned that a little bit from Moses, learned that a little bit from our experiences in life, and really just learn this from God walking with us in faith. And so that's just one of the examples that I think about when I think about passing on the faith and walking in faith with those around us and recognizing that this idea of mentoring and mutual discipleship is such an important part of our call into ministry.
[00:25:13] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: I agree with you completely. Yeah. And I think that as we.
I think that as leaders recognize the value of that, they'll realize that a lot of the. Maybe the nerves or the anxiousness that goes into being overly protective of that vision, like, when you realize, like, you're passing along a lot of the wisdom that you've accrued over the years to that person, now you suddenly realize, oh, they are learning from me, just as Joshua learned from Moses, just as Timothy learned from Paul. Like, this ancient wisdom that we have through the Holy Spirit is being imparted to those that we walk with, which means that now we're not so antsy handing over the steering wheel when we come up to a steep mountain road, because we're like, well, they learned from me, and God taught me so much, and we can trust the process to go outside of our hands more. We don't have to be so defensive of this thing.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: I'm glad you brought up that word trust, because I think that plays a. A big part of this. Right. So when we think about the pecking order, the gatekeeping and all those other pieces, having trust in the lives of those we're walking with. And sometimes it's broken.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Sometimes it needs to be rebuilt. But the reality is we keep walking with each other in faith in those difficult times and good times.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: So I'm trying to think of a resource that might be helpful for us in this. And the only one that I can think of right now might be, and we may bring this up at another episode, but forgive me for that, is this research called growing Young that came out of the Fuller Youth Institute back in 2017. And it talks about a number of things connected to this. And one of them would be one of the essential strategies for equipping leaders is called passing on the keys of leadership. And recognizing that part of our call is to walk with our young people, our young adults, in faith, and actually pass on the keys of leadership to give them purpose, as you talked about at the beginning, give them value, let them be heard, and basically inviting them to be part of the larger conversations. We realize it's a journey. We realize that it takes intentionality and training. It doesn't come right away, but it's recognizing that there's something here that we see in you. Like somebody saw in you, somebody saw in me. And they said, we want to spend some time helping you unpack that and using that for the kingdom.
[00:27:56] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Friends, we've come to the end of another episode. Thank you so much for listening. Ron, thank you for all of your wonderful insights there.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Thank you, John. And this has been so good. I love hearing you and working with you in this space. Oh, yeah, it's been so good.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: It sure has been.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Until next time.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Until next time. Thank you all.
