Building Intergenerational Bridges in Church Ministries

[00:00:02] Speaker A: I just noticed that so many more kids are dealing with anxiety and just all of these fearful things that they're facing. And I just kept thinking, you know, if you only knew how much God loves you and how much of a foundation you have being a believer. I feel like that will help support you through the rest of your life. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Greetings, everyone. This is Ron DeVries on our generation Spark podcast. The title of our podcast is Spark Dialogue. And part of our hope today is to spark some dialogue around intergenerational ministry, around mentoring, but more specifically around the ministries of children's ministry and youth and young adult ministry within our churches. And we've got two practitioners who I work with daily in my congregation. Their names are Jen and Nelly. Say hello, Jen and Nell. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Hi, everyone. [00:01:05] Speaker C: Hello. [00:01:07] Speaker B: We're going to get to know these two wonderful ladies in a little bit. But before we jump into that, just a little bit of an intro question that we were talking about off air that we're going to be. We're going to be talking through a little bit. So here's the. Here's the setting. So we know that ministry can often be busy. There's a lot of things going on. We. We often have that season in our ministry life where we just kind of get. I'm so tired. I just need a break. I want a bit of a rest. And maybe sometimes during those busy seasons, we kind of walk away from the ministry for a moment and we get involved in a really good book, a book that's been so interesting to us, we can't put it down. You know what kind of books I'm talking about, right? The ones that just kind of turn our brain, move our brain into a different place. Or it can be a movie. Who doesn't love watching shrek for the 20th time? Right. It just kind of distracting us. Right. Or perhaps a Madagascar with the wonderful music that's connected to it. Or it could be an activity. And I'm not going to jump too far ahead of myself right now. There's some of us that may be naming an activity something we're deeply skilled in, or we're going to name something that that's kind of fun. I'll go. I'll set the pace for this. Jen and Nelly. For me, it's a movie. I don't mind watch. Watching a really good movie every once in a while, a few times, because it's just kind of distracting. It's kind of fun. And there were two that I kind of grew up with that I would say they were great. Distractions pull me away from the busyness and sometimes the tension filled world of ministry. And I'll just name those two movies and maybe you've heard of them. I don't know if you have. And they're quirky comedies. I will just say that they're quirky comedies. And so the first one is Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I don't know if you've ever watched that movie. It's just fun from start to finish. It's a little bit of a troublemaker. Ferris and his sister don't always get along, but it's just a fun movie to watch. The other one that I find incredibly distracting from the busy ministry life just to get away from things is A Knight's Tale. Ooh, do you guys know that one? [00:03:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're kind of fun, right? They're. They're lighthearted. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Those are good picks. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So you too, is there something that you do or maybe have a book or a movie that you kind of go to that you kind of think this is. This is good rest for me, Distraction for me as I contemplate or live in a busy ministry season. I'm just going to ask Jen to go first. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Okay. It's funny that you were talking about the music that goes along with movies because recently my husband and I took our two girls to see Mamma Mia. And the music in that movie play is amazing. And then it reminded me also of karaoke, because who doesn't love singing ABBA with karaoke, right? [00:04:13] Speaker B: Everybody does. Everybody does it, right? [00:04:16] Speaker A: And Ron, we were just at your cabin over this past weekend. I was there with some girlfriends and I brought my karaoke and we spent hours singing some ABBA and other songs. Tom Petty's in there. I love singing karaoke. So much fun. [00:04:32] Speaker B: That is so, so much fun. Do you have a go to song normally if you're doing karaoke? [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yes. Well, I have a many, but the one that I sang specifically over the weekend was the Apartment song by Tom Petty. I don't think very many people know this song, but it is my favorite. It's just a fun, short little ditty and I love it. [00:04:53] Speaker C: I thought for sure you were gonna say Dixie Chicks. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Oh, Also Dixie Chicks 100. [00:04:58] Speaker B: Really? [00:04:59] Speaker A: All of them. [00:05:01] Speaker B: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. I love karaoke. It's so much fun. But I mean, it's really intimidating too, right? I mean, there's some really, really good singers and then sometimes you just, you just don't care, right? You just Go up and care. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Who cares? Microphones, right? And then two of you are singing. And guess what? The entire crowd's singing with you anyways. [00:05:22] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:05:23] Speaker B: It's a beautiful noise. A beautiful noise, right? So good. I love that Nelly. [00:05:30] Speaker C: Oh, I. I put down golf, but the more I say here and the more I think about it, the more I realize that golf actually sometimes stresses me out more than it calms me down. I'm not very good lately. But you know what? Now listening to Ron talk about movies, I was thinking about it. You guys know this. I've been watching Elvis Presley's movie catalog, so we're going to go with those. Actually watching an Elvis Presley movie, [00:05:58] Speaker B: King [00:05:58] Speaker C: Creole specifically, has been my favorite. I think I've seen that one now three or four times. [00:06:03] Speaker A: I love that. [00:06:05] Speaker B: The archives again. Oh, my goodness. [00:06:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:09] Speaker B: It's interesting you bring up the music. Seems to be a theme for us right now, right? Because, I mean, a couple of these movies have been just littered with incredible soundtracks, right? [00:06:20] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:06:21] Speaker B: And as you guys both know me a little bit, uh, I'm the podcast or I'm the playlist guy. I just love creating these little playlists whenever I travel somewhere. And so I do have a few of the King on my latest playlist. So I'm gonna have to pull out the King Creel movie, because that just sounds like an amazing time. [00:06:41] Speaker C: Oh, it's great. It's so good. [00:06:43] Speaker A: I've written it down. Had to watch it, too. Janelle. [00:06:46] Speaker C: Yes. Watch it. I'm still looking for Jailhouse Rock, so if anyone knows where to stream Jailhouse Rock in Canada, I'm looking for that because I can't find it anywhere. [00:06:58] Speaker B: Okay, anyone out there who's listening, please put it in the notes and any kind of messaging to us. If you can find Jailhouse Rock to give to Nellie, that would be an amazing gift for her. Give her a little bit of rest in a busy. Yeah. Well done. Thanks, guys. As you may know, if you're a faithful listener, we always have a bit of a shout out to a ministry that's important to us. And over the years that we've been doing this podcast, we've had many different types of ministries that have been dear to our hearts, that we've listed, that we've shared a little bit about. I've asked Nellie and Jen to share. Maybe there was a ministry that they would like to bring to light, to bring to you as an audience something that we feel is dear to our hearts. Here. I'm going to pass it on to Jen and then maybe give a little bit of a background to ministry that you've named. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. I thought that we could share with our audience an annual event that we do. We. Our church is in a neighborhood where there's, you know, a high needs school where, you know, there isn't maybe a lot of money to be buying school supplies and some help for some of the kids and that sort of thing. So a few years ago, we thought this would be a great outreach or mission type event that we can help support the school. So at the end of the summer each year, we have been setting up like a big parking lot with all kinds of tables, with all kinds of school supplies, just some fun little gadgets that the kids are thinking are very cool. That year we have hairdressers on site so they can get a fresh new haircut for the beginning of the school season. We also have some partnerships with some local businesses who are often willing to donate some products or even door prizes, that sort of thing. And so the kids get an opportunity to just go around and actually shop for their own school supplies and get. Instead of getting that generic, everybody gets this thing of pencils or this type of notebook. We kind of give them a little bit of choice and voice in some of the products they might need for school. We've noticed that the school. School really appreciates this and. And so we just feel honored to be able to help the community out in this way. And it's really brought us closer to the school and other community members too. So that's one of our events that are very near and dear to our hearts at Covenant here. And we get a lot of participation from the congregation too. So yay for back to Bell Meade. [00:09:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:38] Speaker B: And just a little bit of context for those who are listening when. When we talk about Covenant Christian Reformed Church. We're located in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and this little community is just kind of around the corner from. From our church building. And so to. To be able to do that has been a blessing not only to the congregation, but. But also to the community itself. Yeah. Did you want to offer any more insights to this, Nellie, as. As part of your work with children's ministry? [00:10:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think Jen did a great job explaining it, but I can offer a little bit of insight into how impactful the event is not just for the people helping, because I think this is my third year helping now as well. And without fail, every single year, it is just such a heartwarming event to attend and you really see just how you know how much the community really appreciates it, how much the teachers appreciate it. Lots of the teachers come out and help as well. And yeah, we just feel like we're making a big difference for that school and I think that's huge. So it's been very impactful being a part of that event, for sure. [00:10:49] Speaker B: Thank you so much for sharing that and confirming the ministry and just even sharing a little bit about the. The outcomes. Right. Because you don't always know if it's making a difference and you very clearly have seen and experienced some of those differences. This makes so good. So thank you for this ministry of Back to Belmead and thank you to our congregation who has made this an important part of our. Our seasonal min. Caring for those students who need just a little bit extra right to support them in their ministry year. Friends, I just want to make a reminder to you if you're listening to us for the very first time or you're a longtime listener, just about why we're doing this. We did take a bit of a break at the end of the season and we relaunched again with an episode a few weeks ago with an interview with Steve Argue. We're back and we're running and we're running hard. And so we want to continue to bring you material, bring you information. Our main focus is always trying to connect life, to connect ministry, to connect the theorizer and the practitioner into an intergenerational conversation. And today I'm really, really pleased that we've got two of my colleagues, Jen and Nellie, to join me because they're first of all, as co workers within the local church setting, with me, deeply passionate about the ministry they serve in. And I'm going to give them an opportunity to introduce themselves. I'm going to start with Jen. Just tell us a little bit about the ministry that you're involved here at Covenant Christian Reformed Church and how long you've been here. And then we'll go into Nellie, who will share her own journey with us, and then maybe Nellie's story will go a little bit deeper, how did she get here? Which I'm really looking forward to hearing. So, Jen, why don't you kick it off? [00:12:42] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. So I actually grew up in this congregation, Covenant Christian Reformed Church. So the people here have known me since I was about five years old. So imagine that they've seen me go through all of my transitional years, all my junior high and high school years, college, university, all of the above. So this congregation saw me grow up, which is interesting too. Right. It really kind of puts into context a lot of the intergenerational ministry that we like to focus on. I started working at the church actually 10 years ago this month, and I started as the children's ministry leader. So I was working with kids ages 3 to about grade 6. And yeah, it was, it was a very eye opening experience. This was not something that I had been planning to do. The Lord just kind of called me into this, into this occupation. So it's been a great experience. About a year and a half ago, I transitioned into youth ministry, which was great because a lot of the kids that I had been working with in the kids ministry, I was just kind of walking along with them straight into youth ministry. So it was great to have already developed some of those relationships before going into youth with them. Relationship building is really the foundation of our ministry. So that's been, again, another eye opening experience because children and youth operate quite differently. And also I have a teacher background, so I've been in education for quite a few years as well. So let me tell you that teaching in a classroom is vastly different from, you know, teaching or leading a ministry. So that was, that was a pretty steep learning curve for myself, but it's been extremely rewarding. I love working with these kids. I love working with all ages of kids. So I consider it a privilege to be working here with all these incredible youth and children here at Covenant. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Was there something before we get to Nelly, but was there something that kind of moved inside of you? Maybe since we just came through Pentecost. Not that we'll lean into a kind of a seasonal mindset when we launch this or publish this video, but. Or this, this podcast, but was there kind of a nudging that kind of moved you from that children's ministry into that youth ministry that said, okay, this, this feels right. [00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think because I was first seeing one of my own children moving from children to youth, and I guess I was just kind of noticing kind of a gap in that transition of just walking alongside these kids in these very important phases of their life. And I've, I've got. I feel like I've kind of noticed culturally that often this time period is almost viewed in a negative manner, as in like this time of discovery and growing independence and, and your own faith journey. Because this is where you are not just kind of walking alongside what your parents believe. Right? You are starting to generate your own ideas, your own thoughts, and you start to really personalize your own faith. And I wanted to walk alongside those kids. I Wanted to be able to be that person who, you know, if you have questions about this or if you're struggling with something or maybe you just need some encouragement in a certain area of your life. I. I kind of want to be that person. And I just noticed that so many more kids are dealing with anxiety and just all of these fear, fearful things that they're facing. And I just kept thinking, you know, if you only knew how much God loves you and how much of a foundation you have being a believer. I feel like that will help support you through the rest of your life. You know, you build that foundation knowing that God is your rock and your salvation, then this will serve you so well for every part of your life. Yeah. [00:17:01] Speaker B: And that's a great leader. Yeah, that's so good. That's going to be a great lead into a little bit more of our conversation in a little bit. For those of you who have listened to this, this podcast series, you'll know that in the past, we've made reference to some of the Fuller Youth Institute books, and Jen was actually probably pointing to two of them that are pretty significant. Growing young and growing with particularly. And growing with has this, this journey, step journey about seeing the children move from dependence to. To independence, to interdependence in their own faith journeys. And so you naming that, I think is really, really important. I want to move on to Nellie because your story is really important to hear and kind of connected a little bit to just Jen as well. So tell us about your ministry and, and what brought you here. [00:17:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. So I am the children's discipleship leader here at Covenant. And so I've been in this position now for just over a year and I kind of see kids through nursery age, so zero to grade four, and then that's when they move on to Jen. So, yeah, I, similar to Jen, have grown up in this church. I was actually baptized in this very building. So very similar to Jen. I have grown up here and the congregants here have really seen me through every stage of life as well, which is pretty special. And yeah, I kind of jumped right in very early on because I have always loved kids. So I was talking to Jen about this earlier. I actually really can't remember when I said started helping in children's ministry because I think I just got right in there. I was so desperate to hold babies in the nursery, so I, I started pretty quickly. I've always had a really special place in my heart for kids, and so I, I've always known that I Wanted to work with them. And so growing up, it was. It seemed like a very easy transition for me to, you know, go from nursery then into helping in the tree room, which is for the people listening. The tree room is where all of our ministry happens here at Covenant, all of the kids ministry. So if I say that, I say it kind of absentmindedly without knowing that people might not know what that means. So, yeah, the tree room is. [00:19:18] Speaker A: Why is it called the tree room? [00:19:20] Speaker C: It is called the tree room because there is a massive tree painted on the wall. Yes. [00:19:27] Speaker B: That's a great image. [00:19:28] Speaker C: It is. It is a great image. And it's got a very nice blue sky behind it now. So it's. It's a pretty. It's a very nice children's ministry room. I feel like the kids have a lot of space in there to learn and grow. But, yeah, that's what I mean when I'm talking about the tree room, if I say that. And. Yeah. So just to get back into it kind of. I was very immersed in this ministry, and I had a great mentor as well, in Jen. So I think age 14 is when I started helping in the tree room. That's when I kind of moved into a little bit more of a leadership role, and then that just kind of progressed. Like, I feel like I just climbed up that leadership ladder very easily, to the point that I almost, like, don't even remember any of the transitions. It was very seamless. And, yeah, before I knew it, I was kind of in a leadership role in the tree room, doing large group sessions and stuff like that, and for a long time, just doing it kind of on the side as I was in school. [00:20:27] Speaker A: School. [00:20:27] Speaker C: And then this position came up kind of as I was transitioning out of another job. And I thought I was completely unqualified for it. My mom mentioned it to me that maybe you should apply. And I was like, there's absolutely no way I could do that. And then thinking about it more as the weeks went on, I thought, you know what? I have a great person to work with, a person to mentor me. I have somebody that's an awesome colleague that can kind of show me the ropes. And this also is a very safe spot for me to be. All of the people here at Covenant, they know me. They have seen me grow up, right? So what better place to try and maybe fail? So I figured it would be a safe spot to land if I kind of crashed and burned. But it's been a year and a half, and I don't think I Have [00:21:20] Speaker A: no crashing, no burning. [00:21:21] Speaker B: No, you haven't. [00:21:24] Speaker C: Yeah. But it's a. It's a very, a very impactful ministry. It is. I'm in school right now, and this job is very much a bit of a break, and it's very rare that jobs are that. So this is like a creative outlet for me. I love the kids. I love working here. It's. It's so rewarding. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Thank you so much. I appreciate the story of how this, this happened and the image of the seamlessness between the stages and getting you into that place and then having a mentor in place, which we'll touch on a little bit later. The importance of that and how scripturally sound that is, is just so, so powerful. Thank you for, for sharing, both of you, a little bit of your background, how you got here and why ministry is important to you. One of the things that we, we've often talked about in these podcasts is the importance of continuing to learn. And the three of us, we were going to go to a conference together and you guys did end up going, and James, who listeners, you don't know who James is, but he's just the husband of Jen and so ended up going to this conference in Nashville not that long ago to the. What's called the D6 conference. And it has been part of my history. I've. I've attended this conference a number of times. I know the. One of the co founders of it, and I think it's really important to share a little bit about what you took away. This is your first time going, and one of the things we talked about was we think that there are going to be some good takeaways for us because it seems to intersect well, the theme and the mindset. The idea behind this conference seems to intersect well with our vision for ministry in Covenant, but also in life. And so I want to ask you guys both why did you want to go and what was important for you to experience there? Like, what were some of the things that you thought I want to take, I want to learn about this, or I want to see if there's something that's either solidifying my ministry call or, or maybe helping me understand it a little bit more. Why did you want to go, Jen? [00:23:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll go first. [00:23:47] Speaker C: I have. [00:23:48] Speaker A: I've actually been looking at this conference for a number of years. I'm so. I'm glad that it really worked out for us this year. For those of you who may not know about the D6 conference, it's an intergenerational ministry that is kind of guided by Deuteronomy 6, verse 5 to 7. So that's why it's called D6. So that's like the passage in Deuteronomy that talks about the two important commandments like the love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. And that these commandments are to be impressed upon your children, to be written on your doorsteps, to be talked about while you're walking, while you're eating, while you're everything. So it's to be part of your everyday conversation. And those are or at least should be goals for your ministry, right? Like, this isn't just something you practice on a Sunday. This isn't just something you practice when you get together for youth group midweek or whatever that looks like this is to be talked about and put into every aspect of your life, right? And so in my mind, that's kind of what your ministry goals should be. And when we take a look at that as being intergenerational, it's not just targeting one specific generation, it's targeting everybody, every single member in your congregation. So what does that look like? What does intergenerational ministry look like, practically speaking? Like, we often hear about so many of these amazing ideas, but okay, yes, I love that idea, but how can I put that into practice, right? So, lovely idea. And so this is why I wanted to go was like, okay, give me some of these ideas that I can put into practice and fairly soon into my own ministry. Ron Yoon and I have talked about how important mentorship is in anybody's life. Like Janelle and I, right? Like, who knew that as a 14 year old I'd be sharing an office with her, right? I mean, I think that's pretty special. And so we are, we're passing on our faith, we're passing on our knowledge, experience, we're guiding and supporting one another so that people as they grow up, as they. And guess what? We don't finish growing up, right? Like it's a lifelong journey, but we are supporting one another throughout our whole lives. And the value that anybody in any generation can pass on to somebody else is just exponential. Like it's, it's something very special. And then you end up with all of these beautiful relationships, right? This is a relational ministry and I know these people. So you're getting consistency, you're getting, you know, all of these important milestones throughout your life where you're celebrating with other people, with your church family of all generations. And then you know, you're, you, you're just all celebrating that together. You're also providing, like you said, Janelle, that safe space for your questions, for your doubts, for your. Anything that you're. You're struggling with, that's a safe place for you to be and share and get that encouragement that you need. So that was my purpose in wanting to go and how it could potentially impact my own ministry. So, yeah. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Do you find that going. You actually came home with some things that you said. Oh, yeah, I can see implement in implementing something like this or maybe building off an idea that becomes your own, that you could say, hey, that might fit here. Was there a couple of things that you found? [00:27:33] Speaker A: What I loved about so many of the sessions that I attended anyways, was the idea that you take maybe somebody else's idea and then you modify, adapt it to fit your own context. Right. Because everybody has a different context within their own churches or their own ministries. But there were so many fabulous ideas. A bit of a tangent, I guess. My husband who came with us, James, he went to a session about men in ministry. What is that? [00:28:00] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:28:02] Speaker A: What does it look like to have that, that relationship as a man with other people, with other dads, with other grandparents, with other. And, and with their own kids. So we were just totally brainstorming, even. Just about that one idea what would happen if we even just had a kind of evening where men could come out and see what kind of impact they could have on all these different generations too. So many times you see, like kids with not a lot of strong male influences either in their lives or even at the church because it's quite a female dominated area with the young kids. Right. So I just think it would be fabulous if we could start encouraging some of our men to get involved in different areas of the church too. And just so many ideas of anything that you can do just to encourage one another and start up something new in your own church. We're hoping to start something up in the fall. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Sweet, sweet. We're going to talk about that in a minute. Nellie. When I think about, you know, this, this intergenerational ministry, Christian intergenerational connections and mentoring. One of the things that we've talked about at our staff meetings from time to time are grandparents and parents and their impact in our own lives. Not just the fathers, but other spiritual leaders in our lives. I find that such an interesting thing today because I do believe that a lot of our children desire connection with these grandparents in their lives. I mean, I remember family My family would say, I didn't know my grandparents, and yet they could be such important faith formation, spiritual mentors in our lives. And so, yeah, I mean, what was your takeaway, Nelly, as you went? And maybe there were some things that you thought, oh, I could. I could see doing something like this as well. [00:30:01] Speaker C: Yeah, well, like to just touch on why I wanted to go is because I. Like I said, I've only been on in this position for about just over a year now. And back when I was just kind of getting into a leadership role, Jen and I went to a conference in Winnipeg. And this was kind of my first introduction into the conference where world and just exactly what it can show you and how you can learn at these conferences. And so I was definitely very excited to go, and I was on the search for a conference that maybe Jen and I could attend together and just to. To gain some insight, to gain some knowledge, to get relationships too, you know, So I was very eager for that. And all of my expectations were met and fulfilled, for sure. I got so much out of this conference. I really enjoyed it. And one of my favorite parts about going to this conference was also going with Jen and James and then having them to kind of bounce ideas off of in the evening. [00:31:06] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:31:06] Speaker C: What breakout session did you go to? What did you learn there? Why is this important and how can this work at Covenant? Like, that kind of thing was so helpful. And. And I think all of our notebooks were full by the end of it. It was very, very, very knowledgeable, very fruitful. [00:31:24] Speaker B: That's the best way to go to some of these things, right? With other people and then meet new people and then you can bounce ideas off of them as well. And let's face it, going to Nashville, too, was probably a bit of a draw. [00:31:37] Speaker C: A little bit. [00:31:39] Speaker B: Yeah. A little bit. [00:31:40] Speaker A: Grace? Yeah. [00:31:43] Speaker C: We've got a couple pairs of cowboy boots. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. Oh, I. I got a story, too, coming back out of one of these conferences, and I was trying to get something, a small baseball bat coming through security, and they would not let me take that in my carry on because they said it was not safe. And so, you know, I hope you had checked luggage so you could take some of these things back with you. So that wasn't a problem. Yeah. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:14] Speaker B: What was the takeaway for you? Yeah, what was the takeaway for you? What was. What was something that you think, okay, if I could tell somebody about what I learned? What was. Was it was the takeaway for Each of you. [00:32:27] Speaker C: Well, mine might sound small, but I don't think that any. I don't really think that any takeaway from this is small. So one of the. My favorite breakout sessions that I went to was how to manage big events without losing your mind. That was the actual title of it. [00:32:43] Speaker A: So good. [00:32:44] Speaker C: It was so good. And when I went into this, at first, I originally thought that, oh, maybe this is not the right, you know, breakout session for me to be in. Because it seems like all of these individuals in this room are ministry leaders at giant churches that have children's ministry rooms that have multiple, you know, different. Multiple different sets of kids. Like girls split up, boys split up. Grade six is split up. You know, my ministry is kindergarten to grade four in one room. Right. So it. At first I thought, you know, maybe I. Maybe I should have gone somewhere else, but I very quickly morphed into this is. This might be where you're at in your ministry, and here's how to adapt to this. It was kind of almost like a flowchart, and it was so very informative. And one of the biggest takeaways that I got was just having a conversation with the guy who did the breakout session after. Because one of the things that I worried about in taking on this position is my age and growing up in this church. I think a lot of the adults in this congregation kind of still see me as maybe sometimes a kid. [00:33:58] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:58] Speaker C: And so how to gain that authority and how to claim that authority without wanting to. You know, I don't. I don't ever want to make people feel like I don't appreciate their advice, but sometimes, you know, I feel like maybe I want to try this my own way rather than right, you know, going the way that other people are guiding me. And so listening and speaking with him just on that topic, and him saying, what did Paul say? Never look down on somebody because of their age and things like that. Just having that conversation with him was so impactful, and I really took away a lot from that. And I feel like I walked away a better leader with more confidence because of going to that breakout session. So that was a huge takeaway for me. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Nellie, you said something that really struck me and something that we talk about with churches all the time around mentoring, specifically when it comes to young people who grow up in a local church and then haven't left. Right. And so you're in that space where you were baptized. Here you've grown up, and many times, and this is the way we often can see this as you're not Nelly, but you are so and so's daughter. Right. And so very much. Right. That's. And that's difficult. Right. And so one of the things that we actually name when we train churches is that we need to understand that mentors do this thing called reintroducing. And so what. What essentially has happened with, for you anyways is, is Jen and myself, and this conference has given an opportunity to reintroduce you to the congregation. Right. As. As not so and so's daughter, but now the children's ministry director, who has value, has a voice, has wisdom. Right. And that's vital. And so I'm glad you had that conversation because I think that's. That's a struggle for young people. It's a struggle for people who are leaning into a ministry context that they might feel like, I don't know if my voice can be heard because of that. Right. And even Jen, you. You work through that as well. But Nelly is a real life example of it, actually. She being reintroduced to a congregation and being used for her gifts in a very, very good way, serving in an important ministry. So I just needed to pause because I just really wanted to name that because I think that's a really, really important transition for you as you've been doing this ministry now for a year and a bit, but really been doing it since you were 14 years old. [00:36:46] Speaker C: Mm. Yeah. [00:36:50] Speaker A: I think that like. Like you were saying, like, those transitions, like, that's what's so incredibly important for our. Our children and youth too. Right. Is to have that support and encouragement during these specific transitions. And I think I mentioned before that often these transitions are viewed somewhat negatively. Right. Because it's challenging. And, you know, there's, I mean, in certain areas, different hormonal changes and whatnot that are going on. Right. But I would love to start looking at these transitions as being something to celebrate. Right. Like these. These are really exciting times where you are becoming more independent and you are learning more about yourself and your connection, your relationship to Jesus and to the rest of your church family, that sort of thing. This is a really cool, exciting thing. It's not something that needs to be like, oh, I know, this is such a hard phase. Right. No, we can actually be excited about it and celebrate with our kids and youth. [00:37:46] Speaker B: There's a great book that was written by Laura and Robert Keeley from the denomination from the CRC called Celebrating the Milestones of Faith or Celebrating the Milestones. Yeah, you're smiling and nodding. [00:37:58] Speaker A: I do. [00:37:59] Speaker C: I have. [00:37:59] Speaker A: It's on My bookshelf. [00:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah. It's such a great resource for churches because it names and, and says those things explicitly, that those are things that are part of the journey. Right. It's part of the walking with that you, Jen, named earlier. That's so necessary with our children and our. Our young people. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:21] Speaker B: Jen, I want to make room for you, too. Was there a takeaway for you that you had from this event that you're kind of hanging on to right now that you're thinking, oh, this, this is so important? [00:38:32] Speaker A: Yes, actually, one of the things that really stuck out for me. And again, we attended so many sessions and had so many great speakers, it's kind of hard to pinpoint them. Right. But this was like, I think this was a whole big group one, but there was a panel of speakers and they had written a book together and they were letting us know about the different types of families, so. Oh, yeah, I learned that really. I mean, like, God's design is the nuclear family. Mom, dad, kids. Right. But there's only about a quarter of families who are actually the nuclear family. Okay. So we have grandparents raising grandkids. We have step families. We have aunts and uncles who are deeply involved. We've got single moms or single parents who are raising their children. And what I think that highlighted for me was we need to start thinking about, like, thinking outside the box about how we can minister to the different kinds of families, adopted and foster families. Like, these are very special needs that are maybe not being met in specific churches. Right. And to maybe just be on the look out, different kinds of families. And I hate actually saying different because they're just different from the original nuclear family. Right. And that how we also need to maybe change our way of thinking so that we can minister to those families as well. And actually, speaking of resources, they had a resource called Reimagining Church as Family. So that might be something for you to take take a look at too, because instead of just, you know, we're here on a Sunday, we're, you know, worshiping together, going home again. What about if we looked at our church, all the people who are coming here on a Sunday as our family? [00:40:23] Speaker B: There's something really powerful about that I do wonder. And this is. This is not specifically a pushback to that, but it's something that I've been thinking about a lot, you know, working with congregations over the last 19 years. Is this idea that, do we need to change our language a little bit around this as well? Because I do wonder if some communities of Faith. So I'm going to use the word households of faith may not necessarily be a biological or a blended or a mixed family along the way. And so when we use terms like family, does that sound exclusive? [00:41:07] Speaker C: Right. [00:41:07] Speaker B: And so it's just something that I've been thinking about. I don't necessarily have an answer for. I, I love, I love what you shared and the book resource. I think there's something really important to that because I think family is vital, you know, to think about it as a concept and what we do and how we're created, as you, as you pointed out, but as you also pointed out, there's, there's a lot of communities or sectors of our, our congregation who may actually wrestle with that terminology or that, that thinking. And so I, I don't know what to do with that yet. But I, but I think, you know, if we're, we're giving enough space for the creativity of, you know, the family and it's looking different, should we also then adopt a language that makes this feel a little bit more, more. Easier to digest for those who may not feel like they're part of a family? [00:42:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's actually a really good point. And new language to be more inclusive, I think is, I think that is absolutely important for us to do because many families have probably felt excluded from your general definition or even from your typical family ministry. Right. And to, yeah, maybe think about different language surrounding, surrounding that. And you're right, I don't have the answer either. But it's something to think about for sure. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Nelly, you got any thoughts on this? [00:42:42] Speaker C: Listening to you guys, you both sound so intelligent. That's what I was thinking. Like I'm learning from this conversation is what I'm thinking. I'm listening very intently to you guys and thinking, yeah, what a thing to think about. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Well, thank you for that, Nelly. And I will pay you your $10 later for that encouragement. No, I'm just teasing. But I think I do wonder, as we think about our local congregation, as practitioners, as ministry leaders, as pastors, we encounter many people from various stages of life that may find it difficult to be defined by something that we have termed as normal for a long time. And so maybe, maybe that's a challenge for us as a community then to start rethinking that a little bit. Because Jen, you've mentioned transitions a number of times and Nellie, you as well. The previous episode, Steve Argue talked about the transitions for young adults in life. And I think that that's a really appropriate term because we are moving from different places all the time. And so I wonder then. And this is kind of. I've been thinking about this a little bit for a while about bridges. So when we think about the construction of a bridge, I mean, we've been surrounded by construction around our church building for a long time, Far too long. People who are listening to us right now, and it's getting a little tiring. Too long so far. Right. But they've been building bridges, and it takes time and it takes development. It takes design initiative around different things. [00:44:32] Speaker C: But. [00:44:33] Speaker B: But I wonder if maybe we could talk a little bit about what are some important ministry bridges that need to be built or. Or perhaps nurtured between the ministries of children, youth and beyond. Right? Because I think when we think about intergenerational ministry, it's really easy to think about them in their segregated state, right. In their individual spaces. And quite frankly, it's much easier to do ministry that way because we know what we're dealing with. But when you start mixing everybody together becomes this stew. And it tastes beautiful, right? The stew, it smells good and it looks good and it tastes good, but it's hard to get there sometimes. We got to get the right ingredients, we got to get the right foundation to build some of these bridges, to make it that. That delectable thing. But here's the question for us. What are some important ministry bridges that need to be built or nurtured between the ministries of children, youth, and beyond? [00:45:31] Speaker C: I am thinking right now, just one of the bridges that first comes up for me is I'm thinking about the bridge that my kids go to from grade four when they kind of hop over to Jen's ministry and are in grade five. And this is a very simple, very basic way of nurturing this bridge. But I think about it because I. I see it daily in the tree room. These kids are so very excited to make it over to Jen's side because of the way that she nurtures the kids with food and with fun games and things like that. And it's such a simple, very basic way of doing it, but it piques their interest. It gets them invested very early on. My kids hear about all of the stuff that Jen's kids are doing, and they are so very excited to kind of get to that point, to reach that age where they can do that, too. So I think that that's a huge bridge that has been built just through, you know, this kind of intergenerational Me and Jen working together. And I think it's a very beautiful thing to see. I love that they are so excited to get out of my room and to go to hers. That's really awesome. Yes. Like, that's what you want to see, right? And even if it is something as basic as, you know, making sure there's mini bags of chips everywhere and making sure there's pops everywhere, they are so excited to go, and that is huge. [00:47:02] Speaker B: You mentioned something that I don't want us to lose sight of because you indirectly mentioned the relationship between you and Jen. And I've worked with churches in the past that ministry leaders don't necessarily speak or they don't coordinate or they don't synergize with one another. That's not been the case with the two of you, and I'm encouraged by that. As a pastor in this congregation, that gives me joy. But I don't know how we can do these ministries without those types of connections and relationships. [00:47:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I have no idea what I would do without Jen. Not only is she. She's a big. Very much a sounding board, a great place to bounce ideas off of. That's one of the best parts about going into the office is her hearing my ideas, me hearing her ideas, and I can't imagine not having that connection. I think that doing events together, just even correlating the material that she's teaching and that I'm teaching is so huge. Just to see that little thread all the way through, it creates a very. It's a. How do I say this? It's. It's like a thread that might be small, but it's woven through. And you might not think that it's noticed, but it's for sure noticed by the kids. The continuity, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at. There's a continuity that. That comes and it's. It's so important. [00:48:34] Speaker B: That's a great word. [00:48:35] Speaker C: And. [00:48:35] Speaker B: And it's a word we use in mentoring language all the time. The importance of continuity, because of just what you described when they experienced that transition, that the relational continuity still exists from the younger ministry to the other ministry. And as we talk about many, many times in this podcast, the importance of relational ministry through the years being that very good image, that thread that links us together. And that is fantastic. I love that. Jen, you were going to say something and I interrupted you. [00:49:13] Speaker A: Oh, no, that's okay. You guys are all saying very worthwhile things. My goodness. And, Janelle, I'll pay you my $10 later on, too. Love you back. You know, I was just thinking, too, about, like, the like the consistency, the continuity, right? Like Janelle and I already have some functions kind of that will hopefully ease some of our fourth graders into like the grade five, grade six kind of section of kids, right? So during the summer and the end of this season, we'll be inviting some of those kids to join us so that they can kind of have a taste of what does this look like, what would this look like for me for next year? Kind of giving them a little bit of an introduction to new leaders, new other students who would be in that grade with them. So that when they come in the fall, they've already met people, right? They've already done a couple of outings or events with these other people and with the new leaders. And so when they come in the fall, they're like, oh yeah, yeah, I've been here, right? Like, no big deal. Also the fact that they see like kind of both ministries, see both of us as leaders, like at each other's events, in each other's classrooms and that sort of thing. We both know all of the students, right? So it's not, oh, I have to get to new, know a new teacher or a new leader or anything like that. No, there's people there. And I was thinking about how we, we have turned from like, you look at Jesus ministry, right? And how he had his disciples and then somehow, some way, our church, I mean, I'm talking universal church, we kind of made all of these little sections of, and silos of ministry, right? So we've got like the elderly, we've got the teens, we've got the middle aged, you know, that kind of thing. And you've got all these great ministries popping up everywhere, but yet they weren't having any connection with each other. And there just is so many opportunities to be able to connect with one another, right? Like, I mean, Janelle, you've had your kids make all these amazing care baskets for some of our shut ins or some of our elderly people who maybe don't get out very often, right? That connects them specifically to these kids, right? So right there we have like intergenerational ministries with each other. We have seniors tea where our kids can go and help serve coffee or that kind of thing. And I just think that, I don't think Jesus necessarily would have like just that silo thing. We're all just kind of disconnected, which are great ministries all on their own, but could be so much more when they're all kind of connected to each other. Like, Jesus interacted with absolutely everybody and he encouraged his disciples to do the exact same thing. So, I mean, if we're called to disciple, I think that is a really great model for us to take a look at and. And imitate copy. There's our exemplar right there. For a ministry leader is Jesus. Right? [00:52:21] Speaker B: Yeah. It's so, so good when you talk about this. This picture of. Of intergenerational connectivity through the generations. Right. And let's face it, the church is one of the very last places in which we have four generations coming together on a regular basis, interacting for a period of time throughout the week. It's. It's just beautiful. And I. I can't recall who said this before, but I can almost see that being just a glimpse of heaven. Right. When we think about what that. What that looks like. And so, yeah, we got to wrap up our time here. Just. Anybody have any scriptural intersections that you think would be lovely to add to this conversation or additional resources that you think would be a blessing to our audience? [00:53:12] Speaker A: I just. Whenever I think of mentorship or intergenerational things, I guess I just keep going back to scripture, too. Right. Like, there are just so many examples in the Bible of beautiful mentorship relationships. Right. Like, Janelle, you already mentioned Paul speaking to Timothy. Right. Do not let anybody look down on you because you are young and the encouragement that Paul just gave to him constantly. Naomi and Ruth is another beautiful example of a. Of a wonderful mentorship relationship. Moses and Joshua. Right. Handing over the leadership. I just think it's laid out so beautifully for us. Right. In the Bible that we can take those examples and implement them right now to our church. [00:54:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So good. [00:54:03] Speaker B: Nelly, any others you want to add? [00:54:05] Speaker C: I feel like I've done this the entire time we've been talking, but just stressing the importance of. As somebody who was mentored, the importance of a strong mentor. Like, I only hope that I can be the mentor that Jen was for me, for somebody in our congregation. Like, it's just such an important chain that goes all the way down. A mentor becomes a mentee. A mentee becomes a mentor. Like, it's just. It's so important, and I think that it is a very crucial part of the church and making sure that we have young people continuing to stay in the church. So that's what I want to add in. I just think it's so important. [00:54:50] Speaker A: So what I just wanted to say was that when you have a mentoring relationship, it's not just the mentee who is benefiting from this. Right. Like, Janelle, you've said that you have benefited so much from our relationship, but me too, like, you have taught me so many things too. And so I don't want people to think that this is just a one sided relationship. It is most definitely not. It is about the whole relationship. And I just wanted to go back to when this is a few years ago when our children were. We're learning about a spiritual focus about silence. And we practiced this throughout the whole season. You know, we started with about 10 seconds, right? And each week we would just kind of add on more. And during this time we would end in prayer saying, thank you, Lord for being with us. We invite you to come into our hearts and have you teach and, you know, have us hear what you would have us learn and so on and so forth. And then our kids were invited to lead our congregation in this spiritual practice during the season of Lent. So all of our kids would go up and we would practice this with the congregation before our service even started. So our kids would lead the congregation into silence. And let me tell you that by this point, our kids were better at this spiritual practice than most of the congregation. So our children were teaching the adults, all the people in the pews about this. So that's what I wanted to just share is that this is such a reciprocal relationship and it's beautiful for all parties involved. [00:56:25] Speaker C: Reciprocal. And I just feel like I should add too, that mentor, mentee relationship can be of any age. Sometimes the mentor is older than the mentee, sometimes it's the other way around. Like anybody in a church can mentor anybody. And I think that that's also an important thing to remember, you know, mention. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Totally. [00:56:44] Speaker B: So good. So good. And that's something we, we talk to churches about all the time. And I think it's really, really important to, to recognize that, yeah, there, there can't, there shouldn't be a hierarchical structure to these relationships that a five year old can certainly model or mentor to 22 or 75 year old beautifully. And I've seen instances of that and that just fills my heart with joy. What you guys have shared today is really, really vital for churches to hear. So thank you for sharing this. Thank you for that last story. We want to make sure that gets included in everyone's inbox because I think it's just a really, really important narrative to contemplate as you start thinking about discipleship in your own congregations and mentoring, specifically mentoring, reciprocal relationships. So, Jen, Nelly, thank you again. This has been wonderful. I, I do think there might be actually a part two to this just based on some of the conversations we had. I'd like to spend a little bit more time and, and maybe you guys can confirm for me. But some of those bridges, I think there's something there that I think we can build on yet that I think it'd be fun to talk a little bit more about. But having said all that, thank you and we'll look forward to having you join us another time. And friends, we just want to say thank you for joining us. If this is something that has been helpful for you, please pass on this podcast to other people, and we're looking forward to chatting with you next time. So long, everyone. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Sa.