Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Well, welcome, everybody. It's good to be with you again.
This is our Generation Spark podcast, Spark Dialogue. And with me today. Oh, I should introduce myself. I think I should do that first. My name is Ron De Vries. I've been part of this podcast for a while now, and every once in a while I come in with different people, people who have a wealth of information or are curious listeners and wonderers and just really great convers partners. And today I have one who covers a lot of those bases with me today, Jeff Fernandez. Welcome, Jeff.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Hey, Ron. It's good to be here. Thanks for. Thanks for having me back. This is a repeat for me, so I'm excited.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm so glad you're here with me. One of the things that Jeff and I talk about often is ministry, particularly around youth ministry, but congregational ministry and the intersection points within them. But before we jump into that, I wanted to give. Give us an opportunity to talk about something that's dear to our hearts, which might be summer pastimes.
Jeff, you and I go back a ways, and I know we live in different climates, we live in different countries.
We maybe have different things that we like to do in the summer. I won't kick it off. I'll give you the opportunity to jump in. What's your favorite summer pastime as we are now moving into that. That time of the year?
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Well, Ron, you have been in my neck of the woods a time or two to see this, but I have an old Jeep that I. It's an old Jeep wrangler. And I take the top and the doors off of that thing and I ride around it. They actually, literally, the term for it is called riding naked. It's because the top of the doors are off. And so I ride that thing all summer. Long foot hanging out the side and letting the wind run through my bald head. And it's a beautiful day. And so when I get my wife and I together in there and take a nice drive, it's a.
It sheds all of the things that were heavy from the day. Those are gone. So, yeah, one of my very favorite pastimes.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: I love that. I love that. And you live in a part of the country in the United States. I'll just state that for a minute.
That is just filled with roads and highways that are just made for this kind of excursion, right?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yep. I live in Michigan. I'm in Kalamazoo Portage, Michigan, right now, and.
But right on the lakeshore. So Lake Michigan is a regular for my wife and I. So we get out There all the time and driving that Jeep out in the lakeshore. I'm a big beach kind of guy, so. Oh, yeah, stick your toes in the sand with a good book or a nap and, and time in the water. I am a happy, happy boy.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: So I love that. I love that you and I are very, very similar in that way that we both love the water I. I came from.
So I'm. I'm currently in Alberta, Canada. Big shout out to Alberta and Canada.
And I, western Ontario back in the day. And we lived close to Lake Huron at that time. And so I was a water guy. Right. And so that was, that was my thing growing up. Sailing, putting your toes in the sand and swimming, that was, that was just a joy for me. I've got this new summer pastime that is similar to what you've got. I've got a motorcycle that just gives me the opportunity to get out and feel that same kind of wind, you know, circulate around you and cool you on those warm days.
But taking in the smells that are very different than when you have your car completely closed. Right. The roof is on and you, you only smell the air freshener that's kind of hanging from your mirror, you know, as opposed to actually smelling the pine needles, you know.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Just filling your nostrils, the real things.
That's my thing. Right. And so living in Alberta, we're close to the Rocky Mountains and just taking the time to ride.
And every once in a while, I'll partner up with some people who share that desire to get out and ride on two wheels instead of four and just take that in. I just had a great ride a couple of days ago with a young adult in my congregation who has a bike. And he says, hey, let's just go for a ride and talk. And it's beautiful. Ministry, ministry showing up in the margins, just kind of doing these kinds of things. Right. And it's so, so lovely. So that's my summer pastime. And yeah, it's just, it's just so, so much fun. Yeah.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: Jeff, thank you for sharing that. And one of the things we do in our podcast is to, besides sharing our summer pastime and something that, that gives us joy, but also is to shout out ministry that's dear to our hearts.
Before we started recording, I had asked you if you had something in mind and you said you did. So I'm going to give you some some air time here and just kind of share, maybe do a shout out to a ministry that's dear to your heart.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank You.
So this is a. It's a local mission ministry that they're based locally here in the West Michigan area, but their ministry actually happens in Cuba. So I'm Cuban. My father was born there. Made it out after Castro came in.
I've been blessed to be back in Cuba a few times.
Hoping to go back soon, but some things that we don't usually hear about very much in the news, but Cuba is really hurting in some desperate, desperate ways right now.
If you have electricity in Cuba, you have it for no more than two hours a day, which means anything that needs refrigeration doesn't get refrigerated to the level that it needs to be, which means that your food spoils.
And any food that you can afford, well, it's just. It's hard to afford.
The average monthly income right now in Cuba is right around $10 or less for a month.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Wow. Wow.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
A gallon of gas right now in Cuba is somewhere around $80.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Wow.
It is.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: It is a very difficult situation in Cuba. And so this ministry is called first hand aid firsthandaid.org and the things that they are doing.
Started by a doctor here in the Grand Rapids area who just ended up going to Cuba once and fell in love with the people who truly, if you ever get the opportunity to go, and I do hope one day, Ron, you and I get to go together. It is the most beautiful place on earth. It is the most hospitable people.
It's just truly amazing. And so this doctor started a mission to bring supplies and goods that you can't get in Cuba. So medicines, food.
Right now we're actually bringing batteries, rechargeable batteries into Cuba. Fast charging, rechargeable batteries. So when you only have two hours of power, then you can quick charge and those will run potentially a refrigerator or lights in your home or things like that. So a fan, because in Cuba, I love the heat, I love the humidity.
It's pretty high there, so makes things unbearable. So bringing some comforts into Cuba.
So that's firsthand aid. So I'm super thankful for them and, and what they're doing. It is not a political thing. It's not a.
It's not a right or a left. It's just doing what's right and helping, helping our neighbors. So I love it.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Jeff, thank you for sharing that.
Can you restate the name and the website that people can. Can look at this for information and we'll put it in the notes as well. But yeah, if you can restate it, please.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yep. It is called First Hand Aid and it's just that. It's firsthandaid.org and that will take you to their website and you'll learn a lot.
It's a beautiful site.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. It's just. Oh, man, when I hear about ministries like this and just wanting to care for people. Right. Yeah, it sounds. It sounds a little bit like what Jesus had hoped for.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. You know, it's hard on some level because when I talk to people, you know, the average person about Cuba, it ends up being politicized. It's a. Somehow it's politically weaponized and, you know, either for the right or for the left. And to all of that, I just say stop, stop.
It's literally just. It's people. And truly right now there are elderly people in Cuba who are starving to death.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: It's.
That's not a political issue. That's not a right or a left issue. That's a we need to help issue. So very thankful for Firsthand aid.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Juan, I appreciate you bringing it up because quite frankly, it's not something that I had heard before and you know, just appreciate the opportunity to. To hear a little bit about it. And for you listeners, if this is something that you could help with, especially if you're local to Kalamazoo, Michigan, feel free to help out in any way you can.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Yeah, please.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: And this is what we're called to do, I believe, you know, as ministries around the world who reflect the heart, to shine the light of. To reflect the light of Christ.
And again, our audience is made up of churches and ministry leaders and people who genuinely care for what I would say is a connection to life, but real focus on intergenerational ministry.
And so if you're listening for the. Yeah. And if you're listening for the first time or you've been listening for a long time, you are a regular listener. One, we're really, really grateful you're back.
Two, if you're a first time listener, we're so grateful you're joining us for the first time. But our real focus here is always trying to connect life, which is what you just shared a little bit about, Jeff, but also the ministry theorizer, the one who is wondering about and thinking about ministry and the practitioner, the ones who are in the weeds, in the trenches when it comes to feet on the street. Absolutely. That we connect into an intergenerational conversation. Right. Because both you and I feel that this is an important part of the calling of the church.
But sometimes I think we wonder how best can we do this? And so today we're going to be jumping into that a little bit before we get into the nuts and bolts of our conversation. Jeff, I wanted to give you an opportunity. You've been serving in congregational ministry for a number of years. Your heart has been connected to youth ministry and young adult ministry, but you've just recently had a change in your own life around your ministry focus. Not that your focus had significantly changed, but your vocation has. And so I want to. Yeah, so I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us a little bit about the ministry that God has called you to and spend a little bit of time giving us a little bit of understanding of what this is about and why you've kind of landed there.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate it very much.
So, Ron, I've.
I wasn't raised a Christian. I wasn't raised a believer in this. Jesus came to know him in high school and had quite a difficult life growing up.
Lots of violence, lots of awful things that had gone on in my world that really turned me away from God until God placed people, you know, much like yourself in my life, and he drew me into something different. And so for the past. Well, this October will be 35 years that I've been working with middle school and high school kids pointing them back to Jesus. So in, in one form or another, volunteer, paid, vocation, full time, you name it. So I'm super excited for that. But in that, in that journey, in that journey, God has placed me in a position to mentor quite a few youth pastors over the past, oh, decade or two.
And that has been such a blessing to my soul to walk with younger youth pastors and leaders and point them back to Jesus themselves and then help them as they point students back to Jesus. And so over the last few years, I've just.
That mentorship season has really expanded and I felt God doing something different in me with it.
And so I ended up starting a ministry organization called recast ministry. So recastministry.org and the, the model to it, the idea to it is so beautifully unique to me. It is, it is truly our job. And our mission is to help youth pastors recast their ministry mindset from whatever ministry they utilize, which normally in the US it's something along the attractional model. We're gonna, we're gonna do some fun things. We're gonna bring students in. We're gonna, we're gonna have a great curriculum that will draw. We're gonna have a program that will really draw students in.
And, and then we'll also tell them a little bit about Jesus.
And so that attractional model has been something the church has been using in one form or another. Whether it's a full on attractional model or a kind of watered down version. We've been using that here in the US for decades.
And what we're seeing right now is that doesn't work.
It doesn't work to keep longevity for students. It doesn't work to keep longevity for faith in students.
We're seeing right now over a million young people every year that when they graduate high school, they walk away from the church. And when I say over a million, it's over a million church going like solid in their faith, sold, bought into this Jesus. But then once they graduate high school, they're gone, they're done. And so the model that we've been using doesn't really work. And so this recast ministry, I literally teach and train, I equip churches and pastors and ministry leaders in how to disciple the next generation through authentic relational student ministries. So teaching and training students that when they receive Jesus as their Savior, they are now biblically a minister of the gospel. That right in that moment, boom, you are, you just became a minister teaching leaders how to enter into relationships that point students back to Jesus. This isn't rocket science, but in my opinion, Ron, it really truly is the way that Jesus did it. And so I'm super excited and thankful, blessed to be able to share this with leaders and help leaders understand it and then utilize it. So yeah.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Recastministry.org that's really interesting.
Both you and I have served and worked with organizations over the years that have have been basically built to support local churches when it comes to youth ministry in some form or fashion or even in a congregational setting.
And so I'm going to ask you this question. You and I did not talk about this before we jumped on, but are you seeing a hunger for this for churches and people serving in ministry?
I know I have run into this quite a bit where people will absolutely solicit wisdom from someone else or help them to see something. So are you seeing churches asking for this right now?
[00:17:46] Speaker B: That's a great question. And let me answer it in two ways.
One, I'm seeing young people longing for this. Okay.
I've seen students like never before. Gen Alpha is not a generation we've seen before.
And all the studies are showing this. The deep yearning soul, longing for truth.
It's almost unquenchable like, they want truth so badly, and they're just looking for somebody to point them in that direction.
I can tell you, even as a youth pastor, I had a student, this was about two, maybe three years ago, had a student walk into. Into the church. We were doing our senior high gig, and I'd never seen this kid before. So I instantly, I. I walk up, hey, my name's Jeff. I'm the youth pastor here. He goes, oh, so you're the youth pastor. Okay. No, I've never been here before. I don't really know anything about this Jesus.
Can we just cut to it? And I said, what do you mean? And he goes, you know, I've been to other places. And they just. There's a lot of games and a lot of stuff and things, and I just, I don't need any of that. Can we just get to the Jesus stuff? That's why I'm here. Like, I'm trying to find out about.
About God.
I went, brother, you are at the right spot. So, yeah, but that's. That is not uncommon anymore. It used to be, you know, 10, 15 years ago. Oh, you had a kid say that. Now students are. That's how they're talking. That's what they want.
So when you ask, am I seeing churches longing for that? I would say I'm seeing students long for that. And then I would say, to answer your question more fully, I'm seeing individual youth pastors that are longing for this kind of training.
The hard part is that the church is still, on some level, stuck in a programmatic mindset.
And so if this isn't something I can programize, if it's not something I can have in a book form or a curriculum form, if this isn't the next best, greatest thing, then for some churches and even some denominations flat out, it's harder to go towards.
We tend to be in the church in the west, in my opinion, we tend to be looking for that next best thing.
What's the thing that's going to grow my church?
And I might be jumping ahead here, but instead of what's the thing that's going to grow my church, the question really does need to be, how are we discipling our people?
Not the program that's going to draw more programs will draw people in, but it's the relationships that will solidify it, that will draw in discipleship, deep relationships with Jesus. So does that make sense?
[00:20:51] Speaker A: It does, it does. And as you were talking, I'm just making notes of a few things that you've touched on that. I think really lean into our conversation today.
And our conversation today, folks, is really about very similar to what Jeff is talking about is maybe a DNA shift. Maybe that's the wrong terminology, but I'm going to use it for today.
Yeah, I think so too. One of the things that have been coming up in conversations that I've had with church leaders, but also parents, young people, is this idea of a deeper relationship with this guy named Jesus, right. Who showed up a couple thousand years ago and changed the world.
Helped me understand more about this guy who died for me and then rose from the dead.
I want to know more.
So one of the things that Andrew Roots talks about in a lot of his research and books is this idea of sometimes we're afraid to talk about the empty tomb or death or the reality of, of the resurrection because it feels if we're not really comfortable with hospital room talk sometimes. And yet that's, that's the piece that a lot of our young people are wondering about right there. There's this exploration for a deeper yearning, and I love that word, yearning from the Gen Alpha World about Jesus and his life and death and resurrection and ascension. Right. I can't forget that.
But Andrew talks about this a lot in his book called the End of Youth Ministry Question mark. What churches and parents and youth leaders need to know about what's happening in the world of youth ministry.
And one of the things that he talked about, which is what you just mentioned as well when he was doing his interviews with parents, is if, if the church can sprinkle some, some spirituality into the programming, we'll be quite comfortable with that because we've got a lot of other things that are going on in the life of our young people right now. But if you can sprinkle that, that spirituality and we'd be pretty happy without actually focusing on the birth, death and life and resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. Right. That, that, that word doesn't, that name doesn't show up in their conversations.
Does that resonate with you?
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Oh, it totally does. It totally does. And that, that in essence is the heart of that, that mindset that, that attractional model that's, it's the, if we can sprinkle in, you know, five minutes of Jesus, then, then they'll be good, they'll be okay. That'll be enough for them to kind of, you know, because they've got sports and these young people, they've got, they've got work and they've got families and they've got academics and they've got extracurriculars and. And, you know, all these things, they've just got too much on their plate. And so if we can just sprinkle a little Jesus in there.
And. And that is truly. That is the opposite of what we would want for adults.
Right. But we do something similar with adults. We don't think we do, but we do.
And so, you know, I've started recast ministry to.
Specifically to teach and train youth pastors. But what I'm finding is this relational ministry.
I do honestly believe, Ron, this relational ministry is going to, if we take hold of, will revolutionize the church. It is truly what Jesus did. All throughout the Scripture, everywhere I look, this is how Jesus did it. It's not rocket science. Let's stop making it as hard as we make it. But.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: And that's.
Those are some of the questions that I'm hearing from people, is how do we lean into church renewal? Right. This revival, I know that's 1970s terminology, and maybe we can use it in some respects here today, but there's this real desire to not just sprinkle, but to fully immerse. Right.
The body, to. To experience the transformational joy of the empty tomb. And so when we think about church renewal and youth ministry, I think the conversation needs to be hand in hand. I don't think we can. This is my personal opinion now. So I don't think we can experience church renewal unless we lean heavily into this relational space of a youth and young adult ministry and, you know, even children's ministry. And one of the things that I think that we overlook, and you named it earlier, is that if. If we just build the. The attractional space into these siloed places within the congregations and we feel good about the numbers that are showing up, the question has to be, are we actually seeing the transforming work of the Holy Spirit taking place in these places?
Are we seeing that? Because I don't know if we necessarily are, because I think we haven't leaned into that necessary relational space that Jesus taught us. That Jesus taught us this is the way it needs to look.
And he modeled that so beautifully for us.
And yet, for some reason, and again, I'm speaking generally, I'm not speaking for every congregation.
There is this mindset in the North American context that if you have the numbers, we're doing really well.
Yeah, but really what's happening? Right. Can we actually say that when I see a young person coming through the church, and you named it earlier, we seem to graduate them out of grade 12 and then they're gone.
And that was a friend of mine, a colleague of mine, who mourned that, who mourned that. That when we go to grade 12 graduations, it feels like we're graduating them out of church. Come on, we got to do better.
And so when we think about church renewal, I think it has to begin in youth and young adult and children's ministry to find ways to really deepen the connection, you know, in. In relational ways. Us modeling and walking with and caring for.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Just like Jesus showed us. Yeah.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: You know, I think.
I think.
Here's what I would say. We have accidentally, and this is where I say, I think, because I think it was on accident. I don't. I don't think the church ever meant to do this, but we've accidentally outsourced youth ministry to one staff member.
And the early church never did that.
The early church, it wasn't one person in charge of all the kids.
Oh, those middle schoolers, you know, they're this or they're that and think whatever you want about them, but I personally just adore they're the best people on the planet. They're so fun.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: They're so fun,
[00:28:32] Speaker B: but I don't want to deal with them.
You know, how many people will say, like, oh, I can't even begin to tell you, Ron, how many people in my career have said, oh, Pastor Jeff, I'm so blessed by God that you're here, because I don't have to, then, oh, you're missing it. You're doing life a little bit wrong, but I'm going to pray for you.
But we really have. We've outsourced the discipleship, the care, the relational ministry. We've outsourced all of it to one person and said, you're in charge.
And as long, in general, we say, as long as there's good numbers, as long as the students keep coming, then I'm okay.
We're happy, because then they're going to become adults. And once they become adults, then we can plug them into and then pick the ministry that you want to get plugged into.
And throughout all of that, you know, I just. I look at.
When you really talk about church revitalization, it is not about a program.
It is not about what the next best thing is going to be. It's not about whatever the famous author's book is going to be and whoever's writing it and kind of the circuit they're going to go on and the conference that we're going to go to to Hear about church revitalization has almost nothing to do with those things.
Church revitalization begins with discipleship.
And in my opinion, and this might be unpopular, but in my opinion, the church is scared to death of actually entering into real discipleship, especially with students, to be that vulnerable, to do life with somebody else and to share with you. My faith, really truly sharing our faith is all about sharing the why we have faith.
I have students that ask me, like, okay, Pastor Jeff, I'm in. I believe in this Jesus. Now, how do I share this with other people? Like, do I go to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts? Where do I go?
And I always tell students, like, well, I'm never going to tell you not to share the Scriptures. Never going to do that.
But when you're sharing your faith, you're generally not sharing out of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.
You're sharing about what God has done in you and how he has changed you, what has happened in you.
That's the why.
That's the why you have faith. That's all you're sharing, and let the Lord do the rest.
But when we get into, you know, revitalizing the church and thinking it's got to be from a program, it's got to be the next thing, this is going to save our church. This next program, this next way of doing ABC discipleship, we make it so much harder than it's meant to be. Discipleship truly is just doing life with somebody else and pointing them back to Jesus in every way. In my victories, in my epic failures, and everything in between.
I'm going to point you back to Jesus by what he's doing in me. Does that make sense at all?
[00:31:55] Speaker A: It does. It does. And for you and I, I think we live and breathe that. Right? Our DNA. We really do.
I've been often rightly or wrongly defined as somebody who's highly relational. And I think God has done that for me. And I've often pushed back on that definition, but I'm learning to live into it.
The reality is, and I'm just going to push us back a little bit here because I think this is important for this conversation.
I've had people in ministry, or even lay leaders, parents.
Well, I don't know how to do that.
Yeah, I don't know how to do that.
And I do need the book. I do need the program to show me, or at least to help me understand.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: And I can resonate with their.
Not frustration, but their anxiety within this.
Right. Because I think that's. That's part of the reason why we have ministries on my denomination, you know, the Christian Reformed Church in North America, we've got organizations like Thrive and Resonate and all kinds of parts of the agencies of the church that develop things to help churches lean into this. And I think that's part of the reason why recast is so necessary because I think people need to be taught or it needs to be modeled for them in some ways.
So then the wondering for me then, Jeff, is a lot of our people in the pews may wrestle with, I don't know how to do this.
So how do we answer that?
[00:33:38] Speaker B: Yeah, so discipleship training is actually quite a bit easier than what we make it to be. You know, there's a thousand books out there about how to be a disciple, how to make a disciple, but there's not actually as many solid books about how to train up to train disciples.
And really I'm kind of glad for that because there's no cookie cutter in it.
If Ron, you and I have very similar DNA, I mean.
Yep, I quite often. In fact I was just talking with my wife about it this morning. I said, yeah, I get to spend some time with Ron today. And she was so excited for that. And I said, I'm like, you know, it's probably, it's kind of mean of God that we're as far apart geographically as we are. I know, but it's probably smart because I think I'd be at your house all the time or you and Monique would be at our house all the time.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: Yeah, totally, totally.
Yeah.
[00:34:40] Speaker B: But when we talk about, you know, disciples and, and how to build and how to become, there is no cookie cut. As close as you and I are and as similar as we are, Ron, you've had a much different life, a much different journey. And so discipling you in the exact same ways that I got discipled probably wouldn't have worked. No, no, no. And vice versa. If somebody came to me, if the same people that discipled you, the same people that grew you and helped you and pointed you back to Jesus to that point where you said, you finally said, yes, this is not my grandparents faith, this is not just my parents faith, this is now my faith and Jesus, I'm in with the same way that the people who discipled you to that space, if they did that with me coming from where I lived and grew up, probably wouldn't have worked. How to chew that up and spit it out. In fact, in high school, as a non believer, as an atheist, I made it my job. Ron, I turned people away from Jesus.
I took people who were Christians and intentionally.
Turned them away from the living God.
And so the discipleship process, there is no cookie cutter for it.
There's no one size fits all. There's no 12 step program. There shouldn't be. It truly is just entering into the lifespace of another human and showing them the Jesus that saved you.
So, so when we get into, you know, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. I usually start at the most, at the basic, the, the foundational level. And I ask people, I ask this quite often, where have you seen God move in the last seven days of your life?
And many times people question, thanks. Many times people are like.
And I go, slow down.
You don't have to worry, you don't have to freak out. You don't have to come up with some, you know, huge dramatic story of.
And, and it doesn't have to be something light and simple. Just start thinking and processing. Actually, where have I seen God move in the last seven days?
Because most of us have a story, right? My conversion story is quite dramatic.
The first time my father tried to kill me, I was 13 years old.
The first time my father and I threw bare knuckles, fists at each other, I was 10. 10.
My, my parents, my mother and father introduced my sister and I to porn when I was four years old. I mean, the life that I grew up in was truly awful and not anything that I would wish on anybody. And so when God saved me, there was this dramatic conversion.
And so sometimes people will say, like, oh man, I just don't have a story like yours, Pastor Jeff. So I can't really do this, like what you do.
And then I ask, what is your story?
Because, yeah, I have this story where God rescued me. What I say, he rescued me out of hell.
But for my other friends who are like, you know, well, I prayed to receive Jesus when I was four, I've just always known my own son. My son is a youth pastor in Columbus, Ohio, 26 years old.
And I, I prayed with him when he was 4 years old at our dining room table to receive Christ as a savior.
So God, I say, God rescued me out of hell.
He rescued my son Riley from it, right? Like, he didn't have to go through all.
My son's conversion story, while it is drastically different than mine, is still the miracle work of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: Reaching in and reshaping you, changing what's there into something holy.
And so whatever our story is, wherever we're seeing God move, that's the base point then for discipleship. Does that make sense?
[00:39:05] Speaker A: Totally does. And as you were talking about your own story, my.
I could feel myself welling up a little bit because, I mean, nobody should. Should have to go through that. And yet God used that in powerful ways to create this incredible person that, that I can see on the screen. But for the. Those who are listening.
Right. Are hearing your story so powerfully, and it so resonates. And, and my story isn't. Isn't like that, Right. It's. It's. It's the, it's the little drip of water filling the can each day growing up in the church, right.
And there were moments of when God pulled me from the areas of despair or crashing and burning and recognizing that for me, I was not far from him, because I still can recall.
Yes. Again, I was too, too young at that time. But I was reminded of what my parents did when they baptized me as a child, and that it was this journey that they were walking with me in and others in the congregation. And so that becomes part of the story, right? It's these.
You remember those things. And so some people can have a conversion story like Jeff did, or others can be living in the space of the church and walking with and people caring for us in those spaces. And that's life for me and my ministry that's been a big part of this is not taking for granted those promises that we make at baptism. Yeah. When we walk alongside a child, when they're brand new or when they're making a declaration at 18 or 4 or whatever that looks like.
But you highlighted something that I think when we talk about discipleship, that I think it's the word that we get so messed up with. And that word is with we journey with someone.
And there are times where the programmatic element of things, especially in our. In our Christian reform demise. We're going to create a committee for this. We're going to create a program for this, because that'll be the way we address it. But the reality is Jesus says, I'm just going to walk with you.
Let's have a conversation.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: It's like the woman at the well. It's like the disciples, right? It's these moments where. And I loved how Jesus does this, right? In Matthew 9, he sends the disciples, okay, go. Go out into the villages in the towns and proclaim the gospel. And don't take anything with you. Right? And so they Go.
And it's this. This journey of, okay, some people are accepting and some people are not. But I'm just going because that's what Jesus told me to do.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: And I think that's. That's the struggle we have, is sometimes we struggle with the going. Right. We struggle with this. This journey of not taking anything with us. Because I got to have an agenda for this meeting, otherwise I'm not quite sure what to do.
[00:42:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: And it's really beautiful because in Acts, chapter eight, I think it is. And we got Philip showing up with the Ethiopian eunuch.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: And the spirit just saying, y. Just go up to that. Just go up to that chariot.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: I can tell you what to say. Not going to tell you what to do, but just show up.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: Just go. Just show up. Just be there. Yep.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Just be there. And I think that's a big part of this discipleship mindset, that we're scared to just show up. Yeah. And yet God's saying, Jesus says, just go. Trust me. Just trust me. I've got you. I've got you.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, Ron, I. With Recast Ministry, I've been doing a lot of social media pushes lately and posting some reels about the program versus relational ministry concepts. And I had a former student reach out to me just yesterday.
I haven't heard from him in years. I mean, we follow each other on social media, but we haven't really connected in. I mean, it's over a decade and 24 years ago, he was one of my students.
[00:43:24] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: And he reached out and he said, man, can I just tell you, I'm loving what you're putting out right now? And then he said, and it resonates so deeply with me because frankly, I can't right now remember the lessons that we went through. And, man, Ron, as a pastor, I'm like, dude, those were good lessons, bro.
[00:43:47] Speaker A: You put a lot of effort into those.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: I did.
But he said, I don't remember those lessons.
His words.
But I do remember that you were always there for me.
That's discipleship.
And it's not to say like, oh, well, me just being there for somebody is discipleship. No, no. I'm there for you, and I'm pointing you back to Jesus. That's discipleship.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: And what's beautiful about those relationships is when they. They express that hunger.
It's the walking with that says, okay, let's. Let's look at Mark.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: What does he. What does that gospel tell us?
What does he say here?
[00:44:33] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:44:33] Speaker A: And that's the invitation. That's the invitation. And I love that because I think that's.
I think that's what we're talking about.
[00:44:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: When I think about church renewal and revitalization and youth ministry and children's ministry and young adult ministry, one of the things that I'm learning lately is in the showing up.
How do you show up?
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:57] Speaker A: And so one of the things that I wonder about is when we think about our own leadership postures within whatever context we're in, and if we're in a congregational context, how am I showing up?
Am I showing up as an authentic self, as a believer in Jesus Christ who genuinely loves the flock, or am I showing up as.
Don't talk to me in any way right now because I've just got to focus on this preaching thing right now.
But are we showing up in a place that we can actually say, okay, yep, I know I've got a lot going on, but how can I be present with you?
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Well, can I take that even a step deeper? Are we showing it. Are we showing up in a way that says, you matter to me? If.
If you're a certain style of person, if you're not my style of person, then you don't matter as much to me?
Are we showing up in a way that, you know, maybe opposite? Are we showing up in a way that has.
That is bathed in expectation?
I'm here to make you a Christian.
I'm here to make you believe in Jesus Christ, and then I'm going to move on.
And where I go with that is I would so much rather sit in your life with you in the middle, then to just explain to you concepts about God. I'd rather show you who he is and how he's working in me than to just tell you. I'd rather introduce you to him than to just tell you about him, if that makes sense.
[00:46:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
We've been exploring Matthew in our congregation over the last number of weeks and did a message on three interactions. Right. And I just so appreciate how Jesus entered into the lives of these people. One was Matthew, the tax collector who wrote the gospel. Right. And how he dines with the tax collectors and dines with the sinners and the Pharisees, as to you, to the disciples. You see what your leader is doing. Right. He's. He's with them.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: Spending time with them. Yeah.
To which Jesus replies, and pretty famous, right. I didn't come for the righteous, but.
Right. But the sinners. And so I think that's. That's Interesting. And then the second interaction was with the synagogue leader whose daughter had passed away.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: And he says, come. And I know when you come, she'll come back to life. He knows that. He knows that.
So Jesus goes.
Jesus goes.
And then of course, in the meantime, what happens is the woman who has been bleeding for 12 years, if I just touch his cloak.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: If I just touch his cloak, only can touch it.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: If I can only touch it, I know I'll be healed. I know.
Yeah, right.
These interactions are powerful moments of withing. I think this idea that Jesus didn't come to shame or judge, but to be with and to say your faith has healed you.
These moments of.
And these weren't the highly educated people that were the ones who created the structures around, but it was the everyday people. Right.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: Well, and this is not, this is something I hold deeply to, and I do some teachings on this, but it's not always received with open arms because it's not what we're used to. Right. When we watch all of our Jesus movies, they all portray all of the disciples as older men.
In fact, most of them will portray Peter as even looking older than Jesus.
But when you go back to the word, here's what sometimes is not popular. But, Ron, Jesus was a youth pastor.
It is almost a certainty that Peter is the only, only disciple over the age of 18.
And whenever I bring that up, people are like, no, bro, no, you're wrong. How do you even know that? Well, we look at the scripture, we see Peter is the only one married.
Now, certainly there were men being married before 18, but there was an age range in there. And so he's the only one married.
So all of the other disciples are not married. That's a little unusual. Unless they're younger.
And then we see later, you know, Jesus and I, I'm sorry, I can't remember the address off the top of my head, but they, they come into town and, and one of the synagogue rulers says, you know, don't you and your disciples, you know, pay the, the tax?
And Jesus says, you know, roughly, he says, like, hey, is it right for the, the, the, the kids of the king to pay the. The same tax as everyone else? But so that you know, hey, Peter, go down to the lake, cast your line, and the first fish you draw out, open its mouth and you'll find a four drachma coin. So the tax was a. It's a two drachma per person tax.
And so he says, you're going to find a four drachma Coin. And that'll be enough for your tax and for mine. Now, if I'm one of the other disciples, I mean, I'm at that point, I'm smelling my armpits like, do I stink like Jesus? Why would. What did I do to you, bro? Why won't you pay for me, too? Why is. Why does Pete get paid for.
[00:51:06] Speaker A: Come on, Jesus.
[00:51:07] Speaker B: Yeah. You only paid tax if you were over 18.
Interesting.
So we are fairly certain that Jesus was a youth pastor, that all of the disciples were way younger than what we portrayed them as. And frankly, like, even the chosen, which I think that show has great qualities to it. Yes, of course, there's things that it takes liberties in. Maybe I don't agree with all of it, but in general, I think they're doing a pretty decent job of what they're trying to portray.
But even that.
That show portrays the disciples pretty much the youngest I think I've ever seen any depiction of Jesus portray the disciples.
And even that is too old.
They were not that old. So when we look at that and you say Jesus was going after young people, there's a reason there.
There is a reason there. And when we silo off our youth, when we say they're going to be off to the side and they're going to do their own thing, we're going to, you know, as I said before, we're going to, you know, accidentally make one person in charge of them and kind of outsource all of our students to something that we didn't intend to.
And we're not going to intergenerationally pour into them.
We really miss it.
Student ministries is not a.
It should never be just a room in a building.
It should be a culture throughout the church.
When I talk about discipleship, I say these three things.
Discipleship moves at the speed of relationships.
Relationships move at the speed of trust.
And trust takes a lot of time in a student's life.
So if we are truly going to disciple, then we have to build relationships.
Those relationships get built in trust, and that trust takes time.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
[00:53:25] Speaker A: And I think what you just highlighted, two things come to my mind. One, if we're thinking about church renewal and revitalization, then we got to follow Jesus because he was a youth pastor. And so we need to focus on youth ministry. And that has to be the leading edge. Right? That has to be the leading edge. And I've believed that for years.
I guess I'm trying to remind our congregations or who's ever listening is that this is an Important part of our work, our calling. And I do believe it. This is a calling. And so for us to lean in with the withing mindset, I think is vital. Vital for revitalization in the church, for all the structures that we want to initiate. It still begins with the relational heart.
There was something else there.
[00:54:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. When you look at Psalm 78, Psalm 78 tells us over and over again. It's a long psalm, but throughout Psalm 78, it tells us, tell the next generation.
Tell them.
Speak it. Share about what you've seen, God do. Share about the ancestors. Share, yes. Share the whole story about where our ancestors come from.
But then speak about where you're seeing it. Speak about what that's done in your life.
And I believe deeply that it is so ingrained in that psalm and in other places. I mean, Deuteronomy, there's other places that we see this, but the church is always one generation away from forgetting a story. Yep.
Yeah.
And that's why, for me.
Yeah.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: And we are basically the last gathering place where four generations come together at one time, once a week.
It doesn't happen in other continents. Everything else is segregated. Right.
[00:55:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:23] Speaker A: And so we need to celebrate that and we need to lean into that. I love that you brought in the psalm text. And for me, and I think about the work that we do with Generation Spark and the work that we do in ministry, when we think about mentoring and discipleship and intergenerational spaces. The Deuteronomy 6 text, the Shema is vital in this. And I keep reminding congregations that there's two sections to this that we need to be mindful of. One is the beginning is about reminding the people of who we are.
We are a people of one God, the one God.
And so don't forget that this is your story. This is your heritage.
This is your legacy. The second thing is talk about this. When you sit at home and when you get up, when you walk around the road, tie them as symbols on your arms and foreheads. And I know people have taken that literally and figuratively all at the same time, but in the North American context today, in the ministry of the church, it's about driving to our soccer matches. It's about driving to the football games. It's about this everydayness that I think we lose sight of, because the reality is that we've tried to segregate it so much into pockets.
Which gets back to what Root was talking about, is the sprinkling. If you can just sprinkle it into and around our agenda. And priorities for our kids, then we're okay with that. But the reality is it's not really getting to the rootedness of what discipleship needs to look like.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:57:03] Speaker A: I want to be sensitive to time. We're almost hitting an hour, and I love this conversation and I wish we could continue it. But again, I want to make sure we're touching on some of those things that we needed to touch on.
When you think about other scriptural references or resources that would be helpful for our listeners to maybe consider, maybe there's a book that you've read, even though we've said, don't read all the books. But I mean, there might be one that we say, okay, here's one that I think would be helpful for you, or maybe another scripture text. Is there anything coming to mind for you? Anything coming to mind for you?
[00:57:39] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, there's a few pieces, obviously. You know, Deuteronomy 6, Psalm 78, those pieces. But, you know, I. I go to.
I go to Mark 3.
Jesus appoints the disciples to be with him.
Jesus, you know, before he sends people, he's with them.
Before he sends you out, he's with you. There's. I mean, really, there's just any scriptural passage we can go to that we can pull pieces from that I think really solidify our belief in what we're trying to say here.
As far as book references, there's. There's two books that come to mind, and they might be a little bit different than what you'd think. The first one, I think I've shared this with you before.
It's a devotional style book. It's a very thin book. It's a very quick read. It's maybe a hundred pages and it's big print, so.
[00:58:51] Speaker A: Love big print.
[00:58:52] Speaker B: I'm all big print.
This is by an author named Milton Vincent, and it's called A Gospel Primer for Christians.
It's one of the most beautiful daily reminders of my need for the gospel that I've ever come across. You know, in Romans 1, Paul talks about, and he says, how I've longed to come to you who are in Rome. How I've longed to preach to you the gospel.
[00:59:24] Speaker A: And.
[00:59:24] Speaker B: And then he says, the gospel that you have already received.
Wait, what? Like they already got the gospel? Why do they need to preach to again? Our need for the gospel daily is so paramount to our own faith that if I don't preach that to myself, I don't remember if I.
What did we talk about a few moments ago? If I don't stay in a space where I am seeing and remembering what God is doing in my everyday life world, then I'll start to forget.
Right. And then I'll start running on my own steam.
So. So that one is a huge one that I. I really, I love so much.
And then there's a book.
This would be, I guess, more for youth pastors. But Ashley Bohint, I'm not sure if you know her. She's just an incredible speaker, really, really talented speaker. But she also wrote a book that's called Communicating to Middle Schoolers. This came out about two or three years ago.
Okay. And it is.
It's the heart and essence of speaking to a middle schooler in today's society.
So speaking to a middle schooler 20 years ago, this book would not have. It wouldn't. Wouldn't resonate. But for right now, for Gen Alpha, for. It's. It's a book that is fascinating to me about taking studies of where we're seeing students and young people at right now, where their hearts are at right now.
It's truly beautiful.
It's challenging. It gives some homework in the chapters. It's really good.
[01:01:07] Speaker A: I love that. I love that. I've got two I'm going to recommend. The first one is a book that I had received probably about five years ago.
That's a guess. But regardless, the title of the book is Liturgy of the Ordinary, and it focuses on the sacred practices in everyday life. And so when we think about some of those everydaynesses that we talked about.
Tish Harrison Warren wrote this book called the Liturgy of the Ordinary, which is just a fascinating book and beautiful, beautiful takeaways for us as we think about living out the gospel.
The second book that I've recommended to youth ministry people often is this book called the God Hungry Imagination.
And Sarah Arthur wrote this book, and the subtitle is the Art of Storytelling in Postmodern Youth Ministry. And I think it's really, really important because for people who have a difficult time being able to be able to articulate their own story, this gives an opportunity to learn a little bit more about how do we do that, especially in light of today's context. And both you and I are.
We love to tell the story, which is that old hymnal that we probably remember when we were a child. For those of you who are listening, I love to tell the. The story of God's incredible work and the ministry in this world. And I think that's. That's what this, this book reminds us of. Is the beauty of being able to tell the God story and using the imagination that God has given us to. To really lean into God's imagination. And so there's something beautiful about that. Those are the two references that I would highlight for people.
[01:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:06] Speaker A: Jeff, any final comments, words that you would like to share with our audience today before we wrap up?
[01:03:14] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for that. You know, I guess as we talk about churches that are looking for or longing for revitalization, as we talk about churches that want something different, they're probably in some space recognizing we're good, we're fine, but we're not also maybe where we need to be or maybe even we're not always right. Like, how do we fix this? What do we do?
You know, I would ask you, are you reaching the lost or are you growing because of church hopping?
If it's a church hopping, then you're not making disciples. This is some litmus test work for you.
And if you're in that space, then I would say it is time to move from programs to people that discipleship really matters.
I always said we don't need bigger youth ministries.
We need deeper discipleship.
Church revitalization shouldn't be an event strategy. Shouldn't be.
We should not spend time strategizing about our events.
We should be spending time strategizing about discipleship and what does that truly look like?
And lots of churches will say, like, oh, we have, you know, we have small groups and we have life groups and things like that. And there's nothing wrong with those. There's nothing wrong with those. But if they're not creating, if it's a place for us to gather weekly to have a meal with each other, wonderful love, good food. Oh, mercy. So do I. But if we're not talking about what Jesus is doing in my life, then we're missing it.
And we're not actually creating disciples. We're just getting together with some fun people.
So if you want to revitalize your church, how about this?
If you want to revitalize your church, don't start by asking how to fill a room.
Start by asking who is intentionally discipling the next generation.
[01:05:42] Speaker A: Good word, good words. Love that.
Thanks, Jeff. And thank you all for joining us for this call again.
You know, one of the things that I have extreme joy about is having conversations with people like Jeff and others. And so thank you for joining me again today and having this incredible, incredibly important conversation around ministry in the church.
Folks, until next time, blessings, and we will be chatting soon. Bye. Bye.
[01:06:15] Speaker B: Bye. Bye.
