Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Generation Spark. Spark Dialogue podcast. My name is John Simon, and I'm here with. I was gonna call you my preferred co host, Ron, but I. I'm worried for how that's gonna affect anyone else who I've co hosted with, but it was what came to mind, so take that for what you will, but nevertheless, Ron De Vries.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, John.
Thank you for that introduction. Preferred. I do like that.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: I will try to live into that, John.
[00:00:41] Speaker A: But here's the thing, Ron. It's.
You're. You're living into it just by who you ver. Just by the fact of who you are. And that really gets us. That just launches us right into our topic. Almost too fast. Almost too fast. But no, I'm glad that we're here. I'm glad that the dynamic duo back together once again. Oh, so exciting.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Nicely done. Nicely done. Yeah.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Yeah, this is very good. How are you doing today, Ron? How. How is. How's life up north?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it's been. It's been pretty good. There. There are parts of the. Our two countries right now that are engulfed in heat domes or whatever you want to call them, but just devastating heat. And I know Tucson was experiencing this last week when we chatted, and maybe still. Still is, but parts of Canada right now just. Just covered with tons of heat and. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, there was one video that I saw this morning on the Weather Channel in Canada, not the. Not the American Weather Channel, where the heat was so, so strong that it buckled the pavement where a car was traveling. And just in front of that car, it actually caused the car to jump in midair. Talk about superhero moments, right? Talk about superhero moments.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I. Last week was truly atrocious. It was one of the worst weeks we've had. I think last Thursday it jumped up to 115, which for all of our Celsius listeners, is a whopping 46 degrees.
But today was actually really nice. We had some cloud coverage, but there was talk of rain. No rain. But the talk, I think, was almost like rain itself. And it was only 101 today, which is 38 degrees Celsius, and it was much warmer. Genuinely pretty pleasant. It wasn't. It was not bad.
So, yeah, it's kind of the. The weird distorted thing about being from Tucson is that I. I remember helping a friend move, and it was like a month ago, and I was like, man, I sure am glad it's not that hot out today. And he's like, John, it is 97 degrees out right now. And, and I said, do you know where we live? That's not that hot. But he was speaking, like, objectively, like John, objectively, it is hot outside. And I'm like, I don't think it is. I don't.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: 97. That's toasty.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: It was toasty. Yeah, but it was. I don't know.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: But your system. Right. It gets used to it. Right. And so you live in it and so on. There was a. There was a part of Alberta this past weekend, John, you can like this or not, but we got snow. And on the mountains. Yeah, on the mountains. It's fairly common. Right. Every. Every month of the year. I know, I know.
June, they got so much snow on the weekend.
Wow. Wow. I'm willing to send it some. Some of it your way, John, if. If that would help.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: It's frustrating. It's like. It's like when Lamentations talks about mercy every morning. Like, no matter what happens every morning you can expect that new mercy deposit. That's what snow is like for you guys. And that really frustrates me because we don't have any semblance of that. We don't have any. There's no mercies every morning. We have dry heat every morning.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: And. But I'm also really happy for you guys.
[00:04:07] Speaker B: Well, thank you. This morning it was pretty cool. Yesterday was pretty cool.
I'm just grateful for a little bit of warmth. Not 97 warmth, but. But a little bit of warmth. You know, I can live with 82, 84. I think that's comfortable to me. But that's, that's winter for you, isn't it?
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it'll. It'll get down lower than that. Our winters are probably. They'll hang around in the 60s and 70s, but it's, it's pleasant. When people come here from other areas, they, they. They scoff at the, at the sight of a jacket in the. In a Tucson summer. But here, another thing that I've. I've tried to take kind of like, kind of count my blessings is one thing I love about the summer is that all of the college students, because Tucson is a big college town, are gone.
Most of the snowbirds, which are all of the retirees who come and stay out here during the winter months, are gone. So traffic is just. It's a brief breeze. Nobody wants to be driving, which means that if you, if you have a job that requires a lot of driving, it's, It's a smooth season. It's kind of nice.
So we're counting our blessings. It's nice. This feels like Tucson in its most concentrated form right now.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: My brother in law drives truck for a living and has been doing it all his adult life. And he, he sent a picture to his wife and his wife by extension sent the picture to my wife Monique of his dashboard reading the outdoor temp, the outside temperature of his truck. And it was sitting at about minus plus 42 yesterday.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: And so that was Ontario, Canada. And so it got pretty warm.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: It got pretty warm, yeah, I would say.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And the difference, I don't know if it's a difference, but, but I know in that context the humidity is, is what really hits you. It's the moisture in the air, the humidex. And this is what, a measurement of the temperature plus the moisture in.
I'm not a weather person, but that's what I've been told. If there's somebody out there that wants to correct me if I'm wrong, please do so, please. But that measurement, humidex was hitting about 47 and, and so that to me sounds just really uncomfortable. Really uncomfortable.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I've, I've been in humid climates during summer months before and I'll say I'll, I'll, I'll trade a week, a week of dry heat over a day of humidity. It's, it is unbearable. There something dehumanizing about an experience like that. This does the, the feeling of Tucson, it is like, it is that feeling, that gust of air when you open an oven, when you're getting ready to pull, pull out a, a prepared dish.
But you know, it's not, it's not a swamp. It's not, it's not what you're going to find in the south or wherever. There's a lot of water, there's no water out here.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: So you almost, you almost need to have superhuman strength or superhuman immunity to combat some of this. Do you know what I mean?
[00:07:11] Speaker A: I, I couldn't agree with you more, Ron.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: And what a flawless transition and segue to our topic. And what, what I love is like this, I feel like for the hardcore listeners of this show and I, I, we, we, we're a little down on ourselves, but they're, they're out there, they're out there for the hardcore listeners of the show. We've hinted at an episode like this for probably well over a year now. They're, they're looking at their phone like it's Christmas morning because they're like John and Ron from Spark Dialogue, those sons of guns finally did It. And we're doing it. And we're doing it right now.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: Let's go. Let's go.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we, we are both, I would say, big web heads. Spider Man.
I'll get, I'll get my Spider man origin story out of the way really quickly because I'm way more interested in yours. But really, it's like. So I, I was, I'm very much a 90s kid. I was born in 92.
I feel like I kind of caught this wave of where you could be a comic books fan without ever really reading comic books. Because this is, this is my, like, most embarrassing admission. I was never into comic books. But the thing was, there was a Spider man cartoon, which I loved as a kid. There were spider. There were Spider man action figures, which of course I'm gonna play with those constantly as a.
The very first Spider man movie with Toby Maguire, which I think one of the most groundbreaking moments in cinema. Maybe that might be another episode.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Oh, I think so. Yeah.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: But I mean, I remember, I remember I watched all of those movies in theaters. They were groundbreaking for me. But I, I loved Spider man because he was a teenager. He was awkward. He had a rough social life, he had a rough home life, but when he put on the mask, he was the guy to take care of business.
And I think as a awkward kind of gawky teen, I just really resonated with that. And I don't know, I love Spider Man. I, I think there is a, there is an. A yearbook photo of me when I was probably about 4ft tall, I think, in middle school. And I'm. I'm dragging along a rolling backpack and I have this big Spider Man T shirt on, and I can, I can perfectly envision it in my head right now. If I ever find it, I'll send it to you. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ron, for our non video listeners, is donning a Spider Man T shirt as well. So Ron, give us a little bit of your. Well, what got you into. Into Spidey?
[00:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah, so both of us, John and I were dating ourselves a little bit. So he's a 90s child. I'm a 60s child and growing up, born in 1963.
We were just introduced to comic books as a child. We had Archie comic books and we had DC and Marvel showing up. And that was where you spent your allowance. Right. You went to the local store. This was before digital media in terms of consuming things like we can do now. But it was going to the store, pick up that, that new New issue, right. And it became this thing that became part of, of who we were. And the Spider man comic, very similar to you. John, teenager, wrestling with life, struggling to find out who he was in a world that seemed very complicated, very messed up, and yet by some thing happening to him, was given these, these powers to combat this.
The ails of the world, the ills of the world.
And yet in that space when he took off his mask, he was still wrestling with having to finish his homework on time, trying to deal with the complexities of family dynamics, not really sure where his parents are, but being raised by an aunt who just doted on him, an uncle who just loved him so deeply. And of course, if you're familiar with the origin story, of course of Spider man in that space, recognizing within the realm of losing his uncle and do not go to the movie version of the origin story that where it says Ben Parker says with great power comes great responsibility. It was actually a final caption at the end of that particular issue that Peter came to that place in realization that he realized he can't use this power that has been given to him for his own purposes, for his own glory, for his own financial gain.
But there was something that was drawing him to another place to, to a deeper realization that, that there's a purpose behind this and I need to use it for that. And that was part of his life journey, trying to figure out how to live into that, how to live into that space. I want to pause there because we're going to go deeper into this in a moment because part of what we wanted to dive into was movies, comics and the gospel and some of the intersection points in that. But before we go deeper, I just want to give a shout out to something that's been dear to John and I when we think about the. Those who do that work, those who craft these stories and use their God given imaginations to help tell a story that draws us in, that helps us to dive into some of these intersection points between the gospel and movies and comics.
A little while ago I was speaking at a short term missions trip and I was informed by a friend of mine that her nephew was the artist or one of the artists. Writer, an artist I believe. I think he was doing both pieces for the Moon Knight series of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And I thought that was really, really cool. And so when you think about that, there's a lot of Christian artists out there that are doing incredible work, that are telling incredible stories, that are using their God given gifts for something that helps Us maybe take a rest from the world or perhaps be challenged by stretching our imaginations when it comes to how do we now live into a world that is wrestling with many, many things. So it's maybe a little bit of escapism or maybe even truisms to help us understand and unpack that.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think I feel like in the last maybe 10 or 15 years, the church has done a really cool.
I won't say like 180, maybe like a pivot in.
You know, there's often all these beautiful things of Christ and of God's character that we're like, oh, we want to embody this. Like, we want to be. We want to be accepting as Christ is accepting. We want to. We want to break barriers as God breaks barriers. But one thing that I've seen that's been really cool is, like, the idea that God is our creator and he has created us to also engage in this creative process.
So I don't know, this is such a cool time to be an artist who seeks to, you know, glorify Christ in all that they do, but is also just really committed to doing cool things. And so, yeah, we just wanted to be like, yeah, let's shout out all the Christian artists, like, both artists explicitly trying to do Christian endeavors in kind of the ministry sphere, but also just artists who love Jesus, who are just in the cosmos just making good stuff, just.
Just channeling that, that part of themselves, using those awesome gifts. Like, that's just an amazing thing. And if you're doing that, whether you're making earrings like My Beautiful Wife or whether you're making movies, rah, rah. Keep going. If you needed a sign to keep going, let this podcast be your sign.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: This is your sign. Keep doing it. Well done.
Hey, listen, we just want to shout out to our audience to remind you all who we are and why we do this. We love doing this. As John said, we love co hosting these conversations. And the reason why we do this, because we want to make sure that we bring our hope anyways, is our main focus is to always connect life. So this is what we're talking about. Some of this life stuff.
Ministry, if you're the theorizer or the practitioner, when you're doing intergenerational ministry, when you're doing youth ministry, whether you're doing adult ministry or every age in, we just really want to hopefully speak to you in that space. And so that's what we want to do here today. And that's what I hope at the end of our time here today that you'll feel like. Yes, yes, you spoke to me in that space.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you, Ron. Thank you for saying that.
So we kind of got a little bit ahead of ourselves with the Spider man chat, but nevertheless, we are going to be discussing Spider Man. But there's also another.
A very. I'd say a very big part of the.
Our American psyche. I think a lot of people know this story very well. I. I was raised on this story. It's also been put in about a thousand different reiterations, and that's. And that's the Lion King. Right.
So we wanted to kind of overlap these stories a little bit and kind of share because, like, we were talking about before we hit record, there are a lot of these really interesting them of kind of living into your true identity. What does it look like to use that identity to look out for those around you, specifically those who are vulnerable?
What does it look like to use power in the. In the many forms that it exists like. And so, yeah, Lion King. Ron, where were you when you watched the Lion King for the first time?
[00:17:17] Speaker B: With my kids. My kids were growing up, and our daughter, I believe she's about the same age. No, she's a little bit older than you are.
[00:17:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:28] Speaker B: And that was the thing. We had to rent the Lion King. We didn't go to the theater. We brought it home on VHS from our local VHS rental store.
And we as a family watched the Lion King. And at that time, when we took it in and listened to James Earl Jones speak the voice of Mufasa, and, you know, it was a powerful story.
And I think the thing that struck me in that is, although it was painful to watch the sacrificial embodiment of protection for your child, and then recognizing that, you know, I'm going to pull in Spider man here, with great power comes great responsibility into this space. And those aren't the exact words in the comic book, but we're going to use that paraphrase for. For today's conversation. Just seeing that lived out and then caring for, you know, his son and his wife and family, and then recognizing that through those moments of. Of continued journey for, For Simba. Right. And. And going adulting, if you will, and recognizing those. Those moments that he was called to. To live into that, that was huge. And I think for our kids, too, I mean, it was a little scary when Mufasa was attacked and so on. And of course, I remember our daughter just kind of hovering a little bit on our couch, and we just wanted to live out Mufasa in that moment, protecting her from this is kind of fake, but yet there's something to this. There's a story here that we need to live out.
And. Yeah, so this became part of our kids video collection, if you will, and a story that kind of lived with them for a while, just recognizing the importance and of course, you know, Elton John singing the Circle of Life as part of, part of that journey.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: And so it was an important story.
I know at the time, however, in Christian circles there were some question marks about, you know, is this something that we can show to our kids? Much like, wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. At that time, along with the Harry Potter storyline.
And so it was, it was a challenge right, in the local church to what does this mean? And what is this, is this really true trolley truly following a theology that we're being called to live into.
And it made for some really interesting conversations at that time. So that's where we were when the movie came out.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Fascinating. Wow. Yeah. Because I mean, I was, I was a kid when Lion King came out and my family wasn't really involved in the church. Church at all. So of course the, the, the hubbub around Harry Potter was like enormous. But I never would have thought that the Lion King would have brought up because, I mean, it was, it was this huge cultural moment. Like it was one of those. There's not many movies that really come out ever anymore where it's like, have you seen this yet? Like, because you need to watch it. Like, it's one of those movies that's like a universal experience for the culture, which is insane.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Like the first Spider Man.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly.
And so I. Yeah, so the Lion King came out when I was, I was pretty young. I think it was 97, so I would have been like 5. I probably watched it when I was like 7 or 8 for the first time. I remember loving it. But also it's one of those movies that you just, you love because you recognize how good it is. But also the whole culture is like, this is the best movie that's ever come out. Of course it's good.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: And I watched it, it about a month ago with my wife and I probably hadn't seen it like front to back in intentional viewing in probably at least a decade. And my, I had this worry because, you know, we have these experiences as we get older of going back to something we loved as a kid and realizing it didn't age that well and being like, oh, shoot, what if this is, what if this is not nearly as good as I thought. And I was just. I feel like this movie just like. Like, like, devoured me. I felt completely immersed in the film from the first note of the Circle of Life until the very end of the refrain at the very end of the movie. I was just. Like, I was watching it. Like, I was watching it for the first time. I was so caught up in it. It's such a bright and beautiful movie. It's so colorful. The music is incredible. The voice acting is incredible. Like, I was just enraptured by this movie. But the scene that always, always just tears me down.
That just, like, brings me to pieces. And this is a film that I, you know, I've referenced in sermons before is. It has such a powerful, like, remember who you are kind of moment when Simba's kind of. You know, he's experienced all of this trauma. He's found good friends. His good friends aren't the greatest influences, but they also do love him. So there is something kind of comforting there. He's not just running off with thieves or something like that. Unless you count stealing grubs as thievery, which is possible.
But, you know, he has this kind of crisis after Nala comes back and he realizes, like, I. I know I have this responsibility and I know that I should go back to be an advocate and to face down the wrongdoers and to stand up for the people who can't stand up for.
But I'm afraid, and I don't think I can do that. And I don't know if I'll fail and I don't know if I'm up for it. And then this moment of just, like, remember who you are. Like, remember who you are and whose you are, that I just, like. I mean, I.
All. All the Lion King aside, like, remembering who I am is such a consistent encouragement for me and, like, my spiritual journey. Like, I know we've referenced Leviticus 19. I think often of that passage from Isaiah that's like, look to the rock from which you were cleft. Like. Like, remember where you come from.
And, like. Because where do we come from? We are children of the king. We are those who have had a great work performed over us. We are those who are walking in new life. And. And it's just so cool. So when you see the triumph of Simba and then, of course, the triumph of, like, Peter Parker kind of owning his new identity, it's just.
It's just so good. It's just so stinking good.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: It's so powerful and I.
I think that's why, for me, Spider man resonated so deeply as a child for me.
And to this day, I think I still think about it. Not. Not in a way that drives me and pulls me away from the gospel proclamation, but helps me actually dive into it a little bit deeper because it often reminds me that although we may start understanding who we are, there's still a wilderness, right? There's still this journey that we're going through. Through. As. As you were talking about Simba and Nala, and there was this moment where I was thinking about Paul, the Apostle Paul. And, you know, he. He thought he knew who he was until. Of that. Until that connection on the Damascus road when Jesus confronted him in that moment, right? It said, why are you persecuting me?
[00:25:22] Speaker A: And.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: And Paul's just what's going on?
What we don't hear much about is that he took the next three years to figure out what that really meant.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: And so there's this journey that I think we're on that requires us to pause for a moment. Peter does that for a big part of his life when he's trying to live into this space.
And I know that Steve Dikta and who was the Stan Lee, right, when they created the character they wanted him to be, not a failure, but somebody who wrestled with big questions in the everyday. I think that's what we do, right? It isn't once you hit it, once you get there, you've got it all figured out, you're ready to go.
Even Simba, right, would have to make some of these hard decisions about, okay, now that I'm here, what's this going to mean? Because there's hard steps in this. There's hard things that come with that. And I think that's part of the journey as a Christian, is we are reminded of who we are. But it also means that with that comes some things that we need to try to live into.
Not because of guilt, not because of a sense of, well, you've got to do this more. Out of an outpouring of the recognition, yes, this is who I am.
And out of that response, thankfulness of what's been placed inside of us. Just like we as Christians thankful for Jesus's saving grace, that we can say, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do this, right? And so it's this. This reinvigoration of something that, I mean, at times without it, it feels lost, right? But knowing we have that, knowing we have that in us makes us feel more. More not compelled, but Ready. I think this is the height of our catechism. Ready and willing to live into this. This calling that you place in our lives?
[00:27:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
I think of our work, Ron, as being a part of Generation Spark, which is so involved in kind of partnering alongside younger generations as their. As. As they really are kind of going through their Peter Parker timeline of being young and awkward and starting to wrestle with the dynamics of a potentially broken family.
Starting to sort through the ramifications that trauma are having on their lives and just trying to ask that question of, like, who am I? How do I fit in?
And I think that we put a lot of emphasis. We meaning maybe Americans, maybe Westerners. We put a lot of emphasis on this process of becoming.
And, you know, in a sports movie, it's the montage scene. It's when Rocky condenses, you know, six months of. Of training into 30 seconds over a soundtrack where he's, you know, punching giant lamb chops and running up steps in Philadelphia and all that stuff. It's. It's the training. It's, how do I get from A to point B? But the beautiful thing about what this is such a silly sentence to say. The beautiful thing about what both the Lion King and Spider man teach us is that while becoming is an inevitable part of an identity, that the starting point is not. I must become valuable. I must become a king. I must become powerful. It is.
No, you actually started there. Like, you're already powerful, Spider Man. You're already a king, Simba. Now you just have the responsibility to live into this identity that you have. So it's not about leveling up and doing all that you can so that one day you could attain to X, Y and Z. It's like, no, actually, the beautiful thing is that you were actually born a child of the most high. And you are deeply loved and endowed with so much power and responsibility, like, from day one. And you get to learn the rocky road of figuring that out. But you've. You've got it already. Like, what. What I think is cool about Spider man is that the Lion King kind of, you know, just. Just by basis of the story, it ends right at this final conflict where he goes back, he fights Scar, the hyenas, kind of get overthrown, all that stuff, and then it's kind of this happily ever after. But with Spider man, because there's so much written into his storyline, he kind of continues to live into this. Like, he figures out who he is and then it's challenged again and he figures out who he is and then he hits another snag. Like it's always this kind of like, like this wall. Spider Man's like, he's like a suffering servant in some regards. Like he really is just always struggling, but it's this constant reimagination of. Okay, hold on.
Before I, I, I'm finding myself in a whirlwind right now. How do I recenter myself in who I am? And that to me as a Christian, like that's what every worship service is about. It's regrounding ourselves in who we are so that we can go back out there and, you know, stop some, Stop some criminals.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I didn't want to use the word doubt, but there's, there's an element of struggle that comes with the journey.
And during the 80s there was a series of issues that focused on Peter's, I think, struggle with his own identity.
And there was actually one of the issues that Spider man no more.
And actually the, the second movie with Doc Ock was actually based on that series at the time. And so it was in that space, if you watch the movie with Tobey Maguire and Alfred, Alfred Molina. Molina, like he did an amazing job.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: So good in that movie.
[00:31:47] Speaker B: But if you watch the movie and you started to look and dive into the character of Peter, Toby did a really good job in that. We'll talk about the other Spider man movies in a different episode, but let's just focus on Toby's version right now.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: That he did a really good job with the wrestling. Right. He wanted something that he thought was necessary for his own worth, self worth and connection to, in, in that movie, it was Mary Jane. He thought that that was what he was called to be and do and that gave him earthly satisfaction. Action. Let's just name it as that. Right. He wanted to have that relationship. He wanted to be there when in reality it was that struggle that actually caused him more grief. And so it was in that wrestling for two plus hours, you know, from, from the beginning of the movie where he started wrestling with who he was in that, to recognizing. No, no, no, no, no, no. There's, there's something ingrained in who I am that I need to live that out, even though it's not going to satisfy my personal desires for life.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Well, that's a hard step. Right? That's a hard step.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, and because like the first movie, him becoming Spider man almost becomes this escape because in his life nothing's going well. He's losing family members Mary Jane won't give him the time of day. So Spider man becomes almost this escape for him. And then in Spider Man 2, now the escape is costing him a life that is finally coming to some stability. And he's passing his classes, he's got the girl, he's doing better. But he like now, now it's like this thing, this power, this responsibility has become detrimental to his life. So he kind of has to ask this question. How bad do I really want to be Spider Man? Is Spider man just an escape from my, my doldrum life or is it something I really believe in? And for him to really believe in it, he first has to walk away. And I, I love that I can, I can envision the Spider man no more cover that you just talked about because they, they parallel it in the movie when they, when he, when there's the shot of him walking away with the, with the costume hanging out so good.
So yeah, I don't know. It, it's, it's like how willing are you to continue to step into this identity even when it's costing more than it's giving? And I think that's such a beautiful question. I think every young person has had to ask that about their faith at a certain point. You know, it's like what happens when it, it, when it feels like it's taking more than it has any, that it's giving to me and Spider man, they asked that question first, you know.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: I know, I know. And I was, I'm glad you asked the question about the young people because I think that's the journey many of them are on is what is this costing me or not so much?
I think that's the wrong question actually.
You know, it's, I wonder how we tailor the question around how can you live into the call that God has placed in your heart instead of what is this costing me to do?
Right? Because we inevitably, and I've had young people ask me this all the time, well, I gotta do this or I can't do this and I can't do this. This doesn't sound like a fun existence, right? And it's really focused on earthly desires, earthly pleasures, earthly things instead of, no, no, there's something more.
There's something more that Christ has given us. There's something more that God has called us to. And living into that is not to take away your ability to live a fruitful life. In fact, it enhances it. It enhances it. But I think sometimes we get so short sighted like Peter did that we want the immediate satisfaction now. This gives me joy now. And I think all our young people are wrestling with this. I would actually say perhaps even some of our more elderly people may also wrestle with this from time to time. Not all the time. I think they've been gifted with life experience that sometimes teaches them, you know, it's something deeper. Right. But, but sometimes not. Sometimes not. But, but I do think it's a, it's a much bigger question that for a lot of people we wrestle with, I want it now, I want satisfaction now and forget about everything else. It's too hard.
And God says it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be. In fact, I want to carry your burdens. Right. When you hear things like that.
I was watching a video just the other day and there was a lead singer from a Christian band who was dealing with fame and fortune, everything that came with being this infamous right front person for a Christian rock band who basically had to confront his demons, right?
And in the confront, confrontation of his demons, he just, you know, stooped into a lower, lower level, into this pit.
Right? And then finally realizing I just got to let go of those things that I think give me identity, sense of purpose to really lean into. Okay, God, what, what do you have me to. Who are you calling me to be and recognizing. And I think as Peter and Simba lean into a little bit, they're, they're called to, to be a leader, they're called to be a caregiver. They're called to be not the savior because that's Jesus. Just want to be clear on that.
But to care for those around them, them and to, to use those things that have been given to them for a bigger purpose.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I, I love that like when like Simba's responsibility is pride rock, he's to go back for his people.
And Spider man you will never see swinging around in Philadelphia. No, he's, he's, he's not a Boston guy, he's New York. He's going where he's supposed to be. And it's like, like when we are called to be about the people that we're called to serve. Like it's more often than not just the people in our capacity, the people in our actual circles, like God, you know, may be calling you to go do some, you know, world changing, life life altering thing, but more often than not, what that looks like is just, just being that caring, supportive, advocating presence for the people who are, who are in the space around us and the, the Good news, I would say, is that Simba and Spider man are living these kind of very isolated, lonely existences because one is a king and one is the only person in the world with superpowers. Fortunately, we're not called to be these islands messianic wannabes. You know, we're meant to walk through life together and we're meant to be in community and really walk arm in arm in the calling that Christ has given us. And that is kind of the whole mission of what our organization strives to do is it strives to say, hey, you actually aren't Spider man slinging through skyscrapers by yourself. Like, what if there were quite a few who have walked the. Who have. Have slung these ropes before and who know and who can help you, you know.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: So there was a moment In Spider Man 2, maybe our listeners will remember this if they've watched it, when there was a. There was a battle between Doc Ock and Spider man on the train.
And the train basically wrecked the controls and. And Peter had to stop the train.
I don't know if you remember that in the movie, but he was snapping the webs all across and he was holding on for dear life to stop this train. And he does, but for the sake of the people. He falls, passes out because the strain is so overwhelming. But it wasn't him that was having to care for everybody else, although there was this heroic moment, but it was the community inside the train that gently lifts him and cares for him and puts him on the ground.
And just in that moment displays the compassion of a caring community, recognizing that, yeah, this person did something pretty spectacular for us.
But now we together are this community that needs to care for each other in powerful ways, as you just described.
I'm thinking about Leviticus 19 because there's parts of this that echo for us as we think about our work with Generation Spark, caring for one another, walking in faith together. And it begins with these words, and I'm going to try to use this with my new glasses. And the Lord said to Moses, speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them, I love this, to the entire assembly of Israel, not just one or two, but the entire assembly, right?
And says, be holy, because I, the Lord your God, am holy.
And then he goes into these statements and commands and caring for each other. And at the end of each significant moment, he says, I am holy. So it's this reminding of who you are.
You are holy because I am holy and you represent me. And then it's near the end in verses 33 and 34 that says this. When an alien lives with you and your land, we're not talking from far away planets. We're talking about people from different countries or different neighborhoods or just even different parts of the world.
Do not mistreat him.
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native born.
Love them as yourself, for you are aliens in Egypt and I am the Lord your God.
When I think about those verses, and I know I'm just pulling a couple bookends out of this text, which is for those of you who are listening, read the entire chapter. It's so, so rich and helpful for us in some of these conversations, but it's littered with, remember who you are.
I am the Lord your God. I am holy.
You are holy. It's this holiness code that comes up and it reminds me of some of the conversation we're just having now, you know, with these two stories. Although they're not identical, but there's, there's elements, there's echoes in this that continue to give us these, these opportunities to say, oh, yeah, remember who you are.
Remember who you are.
Remember who you are. Of course, Peter, my sense is he's not a Christian. I don't know that, but reading the comics, I would say he may not be, but he's certainly living out things that might feel like he's leaning into this holiness code of remember who you are, care for each other, etc.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: Sure, Simba may be as much of a Christian as a lion can be.
I don't know, that's, that's a tough call for him.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: You know what? Maybe. I mean, we've got lion storylines littered throughout Christian narrative, right?
[00:43:53] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know what the gospel really looks like to the king of the beasts, but I don't know, maybe, maybe he's about as Christian as Christian gets for the animal kingdom.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I would think.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: I don't know. Don't, don't quote me. Don't, don't tell my seminary professors I said this because I my, get my, get my marks removed.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: But there's something incredible about some of these stories though, aren't there?
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely there are and I love it.
Yeah.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: What else do you want to pull away from this? Is there something else that kind of sticking out to you that you say, oh, man, I just, I just need to share that about this yet.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: You know, I, I just.
One of the.
Okay, I'm gonna sound like a little bit of a negative guy. One of the criticisms I had of certain iterations of Spider man are that sometimes he doesn't have a bad enough time.
And that's not because I don't like Spider Man. I actually love Spider Man. But so much of his identity is being the guy where things just never work out his way. Right. And that is such an unfortunate character trope to have. But on the flip side, that is always this catalyst for him to grow and for him to overcome the challenges that are thrown his way and for him to continue to press into this identity of who he is and of who he belongs to, in a sense.
And.
Yeah, I don't know. I think. I think a lot of people I've known have just resonated so much with Spider man because it just seems like things never work out, but never. But it's kind of that. That narrative of, like, you know, always beaten down, but never, never truly defeated. Like, always. Always able to get back on his feet and say, all right, I got some more. I got some more fight left in me. Me.
[00:45:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: And. And I like that. Like that a lot.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: There's something about the character that. And I've heard that argument as well. He just can't get a break. He just can't get a break.
[00:46:09] Speaker A: And.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: And I. I've read that into the character as well, and I. Man, come on, issue 725. Can you please just let him be right?
And I think that's. That's part of the quality of. Of the fight. Right. That we all kind of wrestle with as he gets older, as we get old, go through life.
I wonder, though, John, if he's come to the realization that, yep, this is who I am, and for good or bad in life, he's going to continue to live into that, even though there may be hurdles along the way.
I wonder if there's something to that for us to take away.
[00:46:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh, man.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: So here's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: We talk about, you know, our own spiritual journeys, you and I kind of name it, named, you know, this.
Not that we mirror 100% what Peter is going through, but there's times in our life where you kind of doubt a little bit, God, is this really where I'm supposed to be?
God, I've been dealt a really crummy hand here. Help me navigate through this.
And maybe we don't get the answers right away. Maybe we still have got to get up the next morning and try to. Try to lean into what this looks like for us.
I mean, I think Many of us struggle with that, don't we? I know we know who we are as a child of the Creator, but, boy, life is hard sometimes.
[00:47:54] Speaker A: Right?
[00:47:55] Speaker B: And sometimes it's really, really difficult.
And so as easy as it is to lean into. Yep, I know who I am, but I don't always know what tomorrow looks like.
And so I trust that God's got this. And I know that as a Christian, I know that. As a Christian leader, I know that.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: That.
[00:48:17] Speaker B: But every once in a while, you just kind of.
What does that mean for me moving forward?
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: And maybe I'm just letting my vulnerabilities out on the table. Maybe too much. And so, listeners, if you're hearing this, you want to turn off. That's fine now. But I do wonder if sometimes that's. That's part of what.
Why this story resonates so much with us. Because even though we are. Are feeling like we know who we are, we. We are trusting who we are, our covenantal theology reminds us of that all the time. And that's beautiful. And I love that.
[00:48:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:54] Speaker B: But there's still days that's hard to get up.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I don't know, it's like there's like the.
I. I have two. I'm realizing this more and more these days. I. I feel these two tensions. I have. I have the pastor tension of like. Well, let me solve that problem for.
[00:49:14] Speaker B: You real quick, Ron.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: Let me tell you exactly what you need to know.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:17] Speaker A: And then there's the chaplain tension, which is like. I feel it. I feel that.
And, yeah, I mean, I think that difficulty and strain and just the shouldering of all of life's burdens is, unfortunately, it's. It's not an exception to the journey. It seems to be a crucial part of it.
And.
Yeah, I mean, and. And this. This. I don't. I don't mean for this to sound, like, frivolous at all, but it's like, you know, what. What is the story of Spider man when he's not getting socked in the jaw by Dr. Octopus? What's the story when he's not. When he doesn't lose Gwen Stacy?
Like, so much of who a hero is is marked by their scars. And sometimes the scars that we have as Christians is not cool battle scars, but it's the scars of fatigue and discouragement and even, like, an existential.
Just frustration.
And. Yeah, I don't think there is a magic wand to remedy all of that, but I do know that we have a high priest who can sympathize. Because he's like, oh, I. I remember.
Like, I remember when I was looking at God, like, I don't want to do this. I don't feel like doing this. I would rather die than do this, actually.
I know who I am. But also, please, like. Like, give me. Cut me some slack.
[00:51:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Because I think it reminds me of, you know, when Simpa's going through this and Nala challenges him, you know, with stepping into this responsibility of who he is and living into that and then just being surrounded by a comedic group of supporters who genuinely care for him.
But I think it's in that beautiful space of genuine care, and Peter has that too in his life, that it reminds me of the importance of these relational connections we have in our lives.
Spiritual mentors, people who journey with us, who are available to us when we need to ask a question, to be challenged. Maybe stretched iron, sharpening iron moments. But there's a trust relationship there that we can.
Like a David and Nathaniel.
Hey, hold on a minute.
That was you. You shouldn't have done that. Right. Those. Those moments. And also those moments of saying, yes, I see that in you. And so, you know, those. The role of the mentor and the mentee together, working together. Not. Not in a hierarchical space, because the older person isn't always going to know everything either, but it's. It's being this reciprocal journey together and learning together.
And I think that's what I love about the pictures and the images we see in the Lion King and even Spider Man's story, Right? I mean, he's got Mary Jane that he married in the comics, and we start to see the relationship there, and it's tenuous, it's struggle, but to come home to somebody and say, I'm wrestling with this today. Can you just listen to me?
I think that's huge. The relational part of our ministries are so important.
So when you describe the pastoral hat and the church chaplaincy hat, it totally makes sense, right?
Absolutely. We. We live into an empathetic space where we want to listen and care for them without judgment, perhaps, sometimes. And then sometimes giving advice and saying, hey, have you considered this?
[00:53:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I, for one, am grateful to Stan Lee and Steve Ditka and Jack Kirby, maybe.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Well, yeah, Jack Kirby, Fantastic Four.
[00:53:22] Speaker A: There we go.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: He was part of that.
[00:53:24] Speaker A: Which Spider Man. That was his original. That was his. That was where he started, wasn't it? Fantastic Four.
Is that true?
[00:53:31] Speaker B: No.
[00:53:32] Speaker A: Oh, no. Okay. All right.
[00:53:33] Speaker B: But beautiful, beautiful connection, because that leads into a review at some point of the Fantastic Four movie that's coming out next month. Month. And we're you excited? Well, I kind of am. They better get this one right. I hate saying that, but I mean, this is the third, fourth time and it would be really nice to see it done well. But I would like a future episode sometime to maybe take a deeper dive. And I. I'm not sure if you've watched the series, but the Daredevil series.
[00:54:01] Speaker A: I do like the Daredevil series quite a bit.
[00:54:04] Speaker B: I think there's something to the conversation around the battle of faith and, and responsibility. And so I, I think that'd be something else to, to dive into a little bit as well at some point.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: I want to ask one last question and we can wrap up with this. And just because you mentioned it, as, as I've. I've only. My only experience with the Fantastic Four has been through movies, TV shows, etc, as a comics person, what should they try to get right that they have not gotten right yet?
[00:54:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, the family dynamic.
I've watched a couple trailers and they're trying to lean into that family dynamic. I think that's really good.
I think that's a big plus.
I would say the Reed Richards is an incredibly smart character in the movie, rivaling probably Tony Stark in terms of innovative creative thinking and knowledge in the movies and in the comic books. To see those characters more true to the relationships that they had in the comics to me would be a win.
The other win for me will be when.
I don't want to give too much away here, John, but the Avengers Doomsday is coming and that's where we'll be introduced, reintroduced to Dr. Doom. Doom as a character again in the first Fantastic Four movie.
I don't know. They could have done a little bit better. I'm looking forward to Robert Downey Jr's interpretation.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: And Dr. Doom is like a top tier all across Marvel villain, right?
[00:55:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And incredibly, a well crafted villain in terms of the. The comics themselves.
So much so that I would even say when the Avengers movie came out or the Age of Ultron came out and we were introduced to Ultron, there was a part of us that actually liked Ultron.
There was a character piece there. I think we're gonna see the same thing with Dr. Doom. And that actually gets me invested in the movie because even though I don't like the villain part of things, it's the character that you think, oh, I can really.
Right. You kind of lean into oh, okay, that's. That's really interesting. Right. To me, it. Okay, one last connection here to comics, and we're leaning into a DC space here. But when Christian Bale was Batman and Heath Ledger was the Joker, Heath Ledger's version of the Joker really drew the audience in. It was one of those characters that he did and played. Played so well that even though it was a bad guy, you just wanted to see more of him. Right. He did it so well.
[00:56:59] Speaker A: Iconic.
[00:57:00] Speaker B: So iconic. So iconic. And so much was built into the character that even in the incredible scenes of the tensions between the good versus evil, you were kind of thinking, where are we going with this? Right. I mean, there were so many challenging thoughts in that you think, oh, my goodness, how's this movie going to get any better? It was. It was just one of those movies, right? The character development was so good. So I kind of envisioned that with moving out of the. The Fantastic Four movie and being that bridge between some of the other cinematic Marvel Cinematic Universe characters, that we're going to start to see some better happenings there. So that's what I'm hoping for with this movie. We've already seen a little bit of that with. What was the last movie that we saw saw?
[00:57:44] Speaker A: Was it Thunderbolts?
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Yeah, Thunderbolts. Did you watch that?
[00:57:48] Speaker A: I haven't. Did you. Did you watch it? Did you like it?
People have told me it's good.
[00:57:53] Speaker B: Good.
[00:57:54] Speaker A: Okay. I'm excited about that. I'm excited. Okay.
[00:57:57] Speaker B: I'm just gonna name right now before we wrap up. We could go on for another hour. I'm sorry, folks, but if you haven't watched. John, please take your spouse to go see Thunderbolts.
[00:58:07] Speaker A: Here's the thing. I. I did not mind the Black Widow movie. I really did not. People seems to, like, be very hit or miss on it.
[00:58:16] Speaker B: I thought it was fun.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: I thought it was cool.
[00:58:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:18] Speaker A: So I'm. I. I'm overdue. I'm overdue. Okay.
[00:58:21] Speaker B: Please go watch it. Please go watch. Okay, folks, we're gonna wrap up. This is so good. John, final words.
[00:58:28] Speaker A: Thank you all so much for listening. And you guys already know we're gonna leave some information about Spider man and the Lion King. But honestly, what information do you need? They're. They're. They're cultural. They're. They're. They're. They're giants. They're cultural monoliths. But if you want to know more about our program, about coaching, about Generation Spark, who we are, what we stand for, what we do, we're going to leave our information in the show notes for you. And, you know, if you even have the slightest inkling of, I wonder if this could be a blessing for my church. Please reach out to us. We would love to talk to you. And yeah, thank you so much for listening, especially through this episode. This is a long. This is a marathon episode episode. And you've walked with us through it, and we love it.
[00:59:11] Speaker B: So, so good.
[00:59:12] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:59:13] Speaker B: So good.
[00:59:13] Speaker A: Have a wonderful, wonderful day. God bless you guys. Thank you.
