Ron interviews Pastor Gabriel from Santiago Chile

[00:00:02] Speaker A: We understood our context, we understood our young people, we understood the culture. And generations brought experience and perspective that help us think differently about intergenerational ministry. We learn from each other, and I think that's the model I want to see more of in our ministry. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Well, hello, everyone. It's good to be with you again. This is Ron DeVries from Generation Spark. We're just so delighted that you've decided to join us again. And for today's episode, we're going to be spending a little bit of time with my good friend and colleague, Gabriel Sanderson. Say hello to the folks, Gabriel. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Hello, everyone. I'm so happy to be here with you, and I'm so excited. I'm pretty sure that we're going to have a good, good time together. Thank you, Ron, for the invitation. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah, you're welcome, Gabriel. And just so you know, we're going to be hearing a little bit more from Gabriel about his faith story. But just so you all know, Gabriel is from Chile, and so we're recording this, obviously, virtually he's in Chile. I'm in Alberta, Canada. And it's wonderful that we can spend a little bit of time together. And we're going to be exploring his story. We're going to be exploring the story of the church that he's connected to. And we're going to be hearing about what God is doing in South America, which I'm really excited to hear about. I've had an opportunity to spend some time in person with Gabriel, and we're going to be unpacking that event as well a little bit. But before we jump into all of that, I just want to say thank you for joining us. The reason we do this podcast is for a few reasons. And the one really important reason for us is that we think it's important whether you're listening for the first time or you've been with us since we began this a couple of years ago, our main focus is always to always try to connect life ministry, the theorizer, and the practitioner. That means the people who are thinking about intergenerational ministry and those who are living it out into an intergenerational conversation. We recognize that we're all in different places. We're all in different on ramp around this conversation, and we think it's important to continue learning about this, whether it's in the North American context, in Europe, or in places like Chile. And so we are grateful that you're here today with us. And so we're going to jump right into it. Gabriel, thank you. Again, for joining us, I want the listeners to find out a little bit more about who you are. I've had some opportunity to spend some time in person with you and we're going to get into that a little bit. But we'd love to hear a little bit about your faith story. You are part of the Reformed tradition in your congregation, in your church, but you've got a story as well. And so tell us a little bit about who you are, Gabriel, and tell us about how God has called you into ministry or maybe how he's walked with you through your life. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Let's begin with that. Absolutely. Thank you for the question, my friend. As you say, I'm joining you from Santiago, Chile, and thank God for technology that let us be here. I'm a pastor here. I'm pastoring a church. I'm serving as associate pastor in our church called Expansion Church here in Santiago, Chile. And I'm also now serving as the executive coach for Generations park, specifically for the new Spanish cohort that we are just starting this year. And I'm also really involved in theological education and leadership development here in Latin America. And I'm so happy to serve in all the ways that God is calling me to serve. And in my personal life, I'm happily married to my wife Kayla. We have three wonderful kids. Three wonderful children. And I think something that is very important to me is helping the church connect generations. And I really believe that the church needs the wisdom and experience of all the generations, but also the passion, the questions and the creativity and energy of joining generations. So I'm very happy to be here in this podcast with you, Ron, and to have this conversation. So going deeper in my faith story. I think my faith story is really interesting because I was born in a Christian family and actually Christianity and ministry have been part of my family for generations. My grandfather is a well known Pentecostal Bishop Hill here in Chile. My parents are pastors and many of my uncles and aunts and other family members are also involved in ministry. I have two uncles who live in the US and they are, they are doing ministry there. I have another aunt who is living in New Zealand and she's doing ministry there. So most of my family are involved in the ministry. So Christianity has been a part of my life for my interior life. So I grew up in the church. Church was simply part of my interior life. So I grew up hearing about the Bible, worshiping, praying, attending church services, watching my parents serve people. And I'm really thankful for that because that was a part of My life. But at some point in my life, especially during my teenage era, at my teenage years, I realized that there is a difference between growing up in a Christianity context and personally knowing God. So for sometimes, Ron, I have to be honest, I didn't really want to go to church. [00:06:12] Speaker B: And it's interesting you say that, because I hear that often, right? Some other people who've grown up surrounded by a community of pastors and ministry leaders, and often we'll hear, well, I'm not going to do that. And so I can hear that. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And what happened to me is that I went to the church because that was what my family did, you know, it was a part of our routine, it was a part of our tradition. So I had to attend a church. But to be honest, at that time, When I was 14, 15 years old, I didn't really want to do it. So knowing those things is not necessarily the same as knowing God. And that's what it was, something important for me at that point. So at some point, the Lord met me personally. And it wasn't simply about believing what my parents believed anymore. So he began to discover who God really was. And I began to understand gospel in a deeper way. I began to understand my own need for grace and what Christ had done for me. And at that point, something completely changed in my life. So the more I knew God, the more I loved him. And the more I loved him, the more I wanted my entire life to belong to him. So looking back, now that I'm having this conversation with you, I think that that experience has influenced the way I understand ministry today. Because sometimes we assume that young people who grow up in church automatically understand the gospel because they know the language, the songs, the traditional. But that's not always the case. There is an important difference between inheriting in a Christian tradition and personally embracing in Christian faith. So that's one of the reasons why intergenerational ministry is so important to me, and that is being a part of my life now. So we don't simply want young people to remain in our churches because their parents are there. We want them to know Christ. We want them to ask questions. We want them to understand why we believe what we believe. So my praying now, based on my own faith story, is that one generations become a living and personal faith in the next generations. [00:08:35] Speaker B: That's so good. I'm curious when you were wrestling with whether or not you wanted to follow Christ when you were 14 years old. And around that age, which we find a lot of young people in our Ministries wrestling with those same big questions. Did your parents, who I've met, and they're lovely people, did they have a lot of patience with you as you were going through this journey? Were they able to walk with you through this? Or was there someone else? Maybe not the word or, but. And was there someone else that helped walk with you during this time? [00:09:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you for that question. Because I believe that my parents, they, they was so important in this, in this season that I, that I was leaving because at that point when I didn't, I didn't want to attend the church, they didn't push me to do it, you know. So I think that was something very important because as I said, growing up in a Christian house means that you are always seeing your parents and your family serving God and loving God. So I never see that serving God and loving God for my parents was something painful. It was something that they were enjoying, you know what I mean? So that was really important because serving God in our family was something that, it was a part of our life, but at the same time we used to find joy on it, you know. So I think that was important because they never, they never been like, hey, you know, Gabriel, you have to attend the church because this is something that we need to do and you have to be there because that is our tradition. No, we went to church because we love being a part of a church. We love being a part of a community. We love our faith, we love God. So the way that they model their faith to me was something really important at that point for me. [00:10:43] Speaker B: When I hear you speak that the word modeling jumps off the page for me because immediately I'm drawn to the Deuteronomy 6 text, which we know as the beginning of the Shema. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength. These commands that I give you today are to be on your hearts, impress them on your children, talk about them. Right? And so when I hear you describe your parents role in your faith journey, when you were wondering and wandering, that's what they were doing. They were impressing that love of God on your life. And that I think has been important as we think about intergenerational ministry within our churches that as not just parents, but, but people who care for and love the people in our congregation, the young people. It's about that intentional modeling and impressing. And so thank you for sharing that because I think that's really, really important. And I think that was my experience as well in Canada, was seeing that from my own parents and then recognizing, oh, because I wandered too a little bit, I walked away. And I was also struggling. And I think it was these people and people who cared for me and loved me, who embraced me and continue to model that in both our lives. And that I think is just so, so important. So thank you for sharing that. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I remember a conversation that I have with the parents a couple years ago. They came to me and they were really frustrated because they, their children didn't want to attend the church. They were feeling really, really frustrated about it. They were being like, hey, Pastor, what can we do? Like, we are trying so hard to make them involved in the community life, but they doesn't want to come with us. So the first question that I raised to them was, how are you living your own fate? Are you enjoying what you doing for the community? Are you enjoying serving God? Are your children in the house seeing that you are enjoying the church life? And they realized that they wasn't. The church was something hard for them. They had to wake up early and they didn't even want to do it. They didn't even want to go to the shower too early to go to the church. It was something painful for them. So I was like, you know what? Maybe that's the problem because your kids are not seeing you enjoying the church life. So if you are modeling that type of faith, they will obviously not going to attend the church because they see the church as a problem. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Okay, I hope everybody heard that. Can you say that again, the last part? If they're not seeing joy, maybe it's because that's part of the problem, that your kids are not seeing the joy in you going being part of a community. [00:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it is a part of the problem because they are seeing the church in their parents as something that is problematic. It's not something that they're enjoying, but it is a problem for them. So they will obviously not want to attend the church because that's the type of faith that they are seeing in their own parents. [00:14:06] Speaker B: I'm so excited about this conversation. There's so much good stuff here. And when you talk about this joy, I'm reminded. I remember I did a workshop at your church back last January, and I referenced a book called the End of Youth Ministry Question Mark by Andrew Root. And one of the things he talks about is this joy, this what he calls transformative joy. And the transformative joy that he's referring to is the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of our people. Not a happiness, a Pursuit of happiness, but a pursuit of holy joy. Holy joy which can only come from a resurrected savior, which is Jesus Christ. [00:14:50] Speaker A: Yes, I remember that there was a council that one of the pastors that had been really important in my life gave to myself when I was starting my ministry. And he said to me, when you have to study the Bible to prepare a sermon, don't go to your office and close the door. Do it where your kids can see what you're doing and show your kids that you are enjoying that time. And that's what I do. When I have to prepare the ceremony. I doesn't come to my office and I close the door and be like, hey, don't bother me because I'm busy. No, I'm there where they can see me, that I'm opening my Bible and I am founding life in it, and I'm enjoying that time. So in that way, they are going to grow. Seeing that in our family, that is something that it is a joy for everyone. [00:15:44] Speaker B: So good. I love that example. Again, it ties in beautifully to that text we were talking about. So you've had this journey. You declared your life as something that is a gift from God, and you want to follow Christ in every step of your life and walk. One of those was to become a pastor yourself, following in your family's footsteps. But sometimes it doesn't always end up that way. So. But why did you become a pastor? [00:16:16] Speaker A: That's a very interesting question, because in some ways, I think that in my personal experience, the church recognized my calling before I fully understood it myself. And let me explain that, because from a very young age, I really felt that God might be calling me into ministry. But I also had some fear about pastoral ministry. And I have to be honest with that, because as I told you before, I grew up in a pastoral family. And as you can imagine, obviously I didn't only see the beautiful side of ministry, but I also saw the difficult side of ministry. So I saw some painful experience that my parents and my grandparents went through in ministry. I saw in many times the disappointment that they experienced. So part of me loved the ministry, but another part was afraid of it, you know, so at the same time, I was always involved in leadership. When I was very young, I became a youth leader first, and later I became a worship leader. So I was always being involved in the. In the leadership of the church. I also began preaching when I was young. My dad gave me that opportunity to preach to the whole church. And at that point, something really interesting happened because the people from my Church used to call me pastor, and that happened when I was 21 or 22 years old. They started calling me pastor, and I would think, hey, I'm not a pastor. Like, don't call me pastor, because I'm not a pastor. But they were seeing something that maybe I wasn't completely ready to see yet. So looking back to that experience, I think a very important part of. I think that was a very important part of my calling, because sometimes I feel like we think that is only an individual experience between God and a person. And of course, there's a personal dimension to calling, but I also believe that the church plays an important role in recognizing God's gift and calling in someone's life. So in my case, the church recognized that pastoral calling before I fully embraced it myself. And apart from that, there is another important person in that process, and it is the woman who is now my wife. Her name is Kayla, because me and Kayla, we actually knew each other when we were children, but we lost contacts because she moved to another city when she was 2 or 3 years old until she was 21 or 22. So years later, we met again. And she also grew up in a pastoral family, so she understood ministry very well. And when we met again, she saw and she confirmed that pastoral calling in me. And that was very, very, very important to me because I believe that pastoral ministry doesn't only affect the pastor, but it affects the entire family. So when the woman that I was pretending to Mary with her, she confirmed that calling in me, and at the same time, the whole church was confirming that calling. I was like, you know what? I can't run away from this. God is calling me, and I have to say yes. So I said yes to ministry, and I become ordained as a pastor here in Chile. [00:19:56] Speaker B: That is so exciting. I've met Kayla, and she is an inspiring young lady who just. She's a great partner for you in ministry and, of course, in life as well. And so it's so, so cool. When I was listening to your story here, I was immediately thinking about, when we think about mentoring, one of the key characteristics of a good mentor is calling out something that God has placed within. And essentially what's happened is your congregation did that for you as a community. Seeing that in you and. And naming that for you. That's beautiful. I love that you receive that affirmation through the years and not just through one place, but many, many voices, which is really, really exciting. So you are not a old person. You are a young person with a young family. And it's so exciting to see you grow into this role that God has called you to do. You find it difficult sometimes as a father, as a husband, but also someone who grew up in a pastor's home to live into this call. Has this been a difficult journey for you or are you experiencing that same sense of joy that your parents displayed to you as well? [00:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that it is obviously, obviously not always easy. Yeah, it gets hard sometime, especially as you say, when you have three kids, when you have a wife, when you have so many responsibilities and you are always fighting with the time when you have so many things to do. Time is always sometimes your worst enemy. And it gets hard sometimes. I want to be honest, but I think, as I said, having my wife, Kayla, working with me in the ministry, having her being really involved in her house, taking care of her kids is something really important to me because ministry is something that she's really involved too, same as I am. For example, right now that I'm here in this calling with you, Ron, she's taking care of my kids. And I believe that's a part of my ministry too. And there are some times when she have to do something at church and I'm like, you know what? This is your time to work with the church and this is my time to stay with the kids. So we work together. So we try to do ministry and do our parents work and be with the kids and take care of them. All that we do, we try to do it together. And working together, I believe, is something really important. That's what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that it's really important for those who work together because when someone of those fall, they have someone who's gonna raise him up, you know, and that's being part of our experience. So when the hard times come, that they come, we know that we are facing it together. And knowing that we are facing it together, it makes that those hard situations become easier to go through. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Wise advice. Thank you for sharing that. I want to ask you. We're going to go in a little bit different direction right now. We've talked about your faith story. We've talked a little bit about your call to ministry. You are someone and listeners, as you can hear, Gabriel's grasp of the English language for the North American English language is pretty strong. And so I know that you've served and went to school here in North America for a period of time, and that's where you learn most of your English, which is amazing. But you've lived in both continents and you've experienced ministry in both the United States and South America. And so my question for you is, what are some of the similarities that you're seeing in ministry and what are some of the differences you're seeing in these places? I'd love to hear your takeaways, because we live in a big world, but yet the world is getting smaller, it feels like, and so there's some interesting dynamics at play. But I'd love to hear your take on what you're seeing in South America, what you're seeing in North America. What are the similarities and differences that you're seeing in ministry there. [00:24:28] Speaker A: Yes, well, that's a great question, Ron. And you're right, because in 2016, when I was only 22 years old, I moved to live in Florida in the US for about a year. I went completely alone. It was all in myself. So for me, it was an adventure. And I went there specifically to serve a church and help that church to develop a worship team, because at that time, music was one of the main areas of my ministry. So I don't know if I told you this, but I'm a professional musician and at the same time I'm a music teacher. So at that time they would not know that. Oh, really? [00:25:10] Speaker B: No, but it so makes sense because when we were together in Chile, and we're going to get into this later, folks, but when we were together in Chile, you felt so natural with helping lead worship. So that makes total sense to me now. Oh, man. I just learned something new. [00:25:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I got the opportunity to study music here in Chile, and that had been part of my work before I was a pastor. So at that time, I was fully working on music, and there was a church that called me to help them to develop a worship ministry, a worship team. So I went there to serve in that church. So I think that that experience that I have over there in the US Gave me the opportunity to see ministry in a different cultural context. And I can say I completely different cultural context because it's so different in many ways. And today, even though I live in Chile, I continue to work regularly with churches and ministry leaders over there in the US and other countries. So I think that one thing that I have learned is that the cultural context can be very different, but at the same time, in many ways can be similar in different things. I see in both cultural contexts people who need community, people who need to belong, people who need to discipleship, people who need the gospel. So something that I have been seeing in both contexts, it's that most of our young people need. They really need adults who will listen to them, who believe in them, who walk alongside them. So those things doesn't change very much from one country to another. But at the same time, they're obviously cultural difference. For example, here in Latin America, relationships are something that, that are really, really important. I remember that there was an experience that I want to tell you here, that when I went for the first time over there to the us there was a young people that he was going to be a part of my students to teach them music. [00:27:22] Speaker B: And [00:27:26] Speaker A: I was so emotional to meet them. So I was like, hey, how are you? And I was trying to give him a hug and he was like, hey, what are you doing? Because here in my context, I was so used to hug to express my love to the people, people. But I see that over there, it was something not so normal. So. And that's something that is part of our culture. In our culture here, being together, growing around a table, you know, sharing around a table is something that is really important. Relationships are really important here. So here in our context, sometimes ministry happen around a table much more than it happens in a meeting. For example, you drink something together, you eat together, you talk for a long time, and trust develops through those relationships. So our churches can also be very expressive. And that's something that is a part of our culture too, or people, they are comfortable showing emotion in worship and in relationship. And over there in North America, at least from my experience, I saw more organizational, more structured, and more intentional planning. And that is something very valuable for your culture, for the US Culture. And I think the parts of our culture is something very valuable too. So I think that there's something very beautiful that can happen when churches from different cultures learn from another instead of assuming that one culture has all the answers. And Latin American churches, for example, can learn from some of the structure, the resources, the intentional leadership development that I have seen in North American context. And at the same time, I believe that North American context and the North American churches can also learn from the relation nature of Latin America, Christianity. So the importance of community that we have, the hospitality, the family and doing life together. And this is one of the reasons I really value the international partnership, because I believe that the question shouldn't be which culture does ministry better? I believe that the question should be what can we learn from each other as members of the same body of Christ? So I think that's much healthier. [00:30:00] Speaker B: I love that. And I think that's what we do, right? I think we need to open our eyes, Gabriel, to learn. We need to open up our to see. We need to open up our ears to listen well, to see what's happening and to learn from each other around what it means to worship our creator, God. And I guess that's leading up to my next question for us. And maybe you and I can both talk a little bit about this is where do you see God inspiring the church today? As you pointed out, the North American context, we are very good at organizations and organizing things and structure. And in fact, I would say sometimes we worship that a lot. We want that to be in order before we can worship well. And having spent some time with you and your context, those are important, but not as important as glorifying God and just being expressive and caring for each other in powerful ways. So where do you see God inspiring the church today? [00:31:11] Speaker A: Gabriel yeah, as I said in the last question, Ron, I think that one of the things that I have learned working with both cultural contexts is the idea that we need each other. So I think that one of the things that give me hope today in the ministry that I am doing is that I see the same needing being raised in the church, the idea that we need each other. So one of the things that gave me most hope today is seeing different generations beginning to understand that we really need each other. So because I think for many years churches have tried to save each generation by creating separate spaces from them. Our churches have had children ministry, youth ministry, young adult ministry, ministry for older adults. And of course those ministries can be very helpful. But at some times without realizing, and we can be or we can become very good at creating ministry for different generations while creating very few opportunities for ministry between generations. Something that give me hope is that I'm seeing it. It's not something that's people have told me I'm seeing with my own eyes that idea that we need each other, we need relationships, we need to walk together. So I think that we are beginning to rediscover how important those relationships are. I believe that young people don't only need a youth program. They need people. They need relationship. They need older Christians who know their names, who listen to their questions, who pray for them, who encourage them, and who are willing to wall with them. And at the same time, I believe that the older generations need the younger generations too. So that is something that it's giving me hope that from different generations are seeing that we need each other. [00:33:26] Speaker B: I love that you say that and starting to see that a little bit more in the North American context as well. Gabriel the understanding that it's not the program that necessarily influences faith formation, it helps, but it's the walking alongside someone, with someone who journeys with us during our times of celebration, but also times of struggle and wrestling with the word. Seeing the gospel proclamation lived out and then people recognizing that God's at work in those moments is so powerful. And I think when I see that happening in my own church, that gives me so much joy. Because there's a sense of not just passing on the faith, but living together in the faith and exploring what it means to be a faithful follower of Jesus Christ and not just going through the motions, right? Not just going through, well, I've got to do this, I've got to check this off in my checklist of things in my calendar to do. But it's a lived out expression of the joy filled hope that we start to see when we walk together in those faithful journeys. So relationships matter. When I see that happening in the church, and I am seeing it happen in some churches and I've seen it in your church, that gives me hope for the future. And I do believe that God is working through those moments because I believe this is biblical. I believe that this is what scripture teaches us through the examples in the Old Testament and the New, and particularly through the example of Jesus Christ, right? Walking with his disciples, walking with the children, caring for the woman at the well, caring for the people, recognizing that these connection points of the hope filled gospel is so, so important for the church. And that's where I'm seeing God inspiring the church today. And that excites me. That excites me significantly. And when we were together in Chile and we met with a hundred young people and we had pastors there and we had other people there, so serving and creating these incredible meals for us and worshiping without limitation, just with full heart in expressive ways, I will say this. My heart and my wife's heart was just filled, filled to the top. And when we brought that story home to North America, people kept saying, tell us more, tell us more about what God is doing, not just in Chile, but around the world. Because you got the privilege to see and hear what's going on. And that gets my heart excited because God is doing something really powerful in the world. [00:36:50] Speaker A: Amen. [00:36:51] Speaker B: And there's a lot of things happening in this world that cause us frustration. But you know what? God's in front of all this. God's. God's doing something. And I think we need to look for that hopefulness and we need to look and think about revival in the church. And that comes from these young people that you and I have had the chance to spend time with. And God's doing something powerful. Amen. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Amen. Definitely. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm excited about this. So tell me and tell the listeners a little bit about why we had an event last year. We, we've touched on that a little bit. And that was in January of 2026. And I know I'm dating everybody listening to this right now, but that's okay. It doesn't matter necessarily. But it was January 2026 and you had a vision in Chile. You had a vision to gather people together to worship and to learn and to be community together. Tell us about that vision, about that event that we were together at in Chile last year. [00:37:55] Speaker A: Yes. I think that one of the things that was very important to us at that time when, when we made that event, is that we didn't want it to be simply another you the band. Because there's a lot of you the bands, especially here in Latin America. But we didn't want to be this one, to be another you the band of those many that already are. Of course we wanted them to have fun. We wanted them to be there in the pool and to be playing games and everything. We wanted them to enjoy being together. But our main goal was to create a space where young people could go deeper in their faith. That was our goal. We wanted them to think seriously about discipleship, about relationship with Christ and their place in the church and about how God might use their lives. We want them to find a space in the church and to find their own calling. That was all goal and one of the most encouraging things that what happened after they came and we did some follow up research and this is the first time that you're going to know about this Ron, because I haven't told you about this, because we did a follow up research and today around 95% of those young people that were part of this event, they continue actively serving in their local churches. [00:39:22] Speaker B: Praise God for that. Is that amazing? [00:39:25] Speaker A: That is really amazing, my friend. And we had the opportunity to be seat each one of those churches that was a part and that was a part of this event. And it was a joy for me and my dad who was with me be sitting these churches to see those young people that was there in the band being a part of the worship team serving the breakfast in the morning. It was really, really amazing to see them being a part of the church life. We had a conversation with One of those pastors, and he was in tears telling us how the youth group was completely broken before this camp. And now he have around 15 or 16 young people attend the services. So it was something that. Yeah, it was amazing for us to see that. For me, that's incredible, my friend. So it is incredible because I feel like sometimes we evaluate Christian events by what happens during the event, you know, and we say, oh, the worship was amazing. The speaker was great, and I can tell that you was the greatest of our speaker, my friend, Gabriel. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Thank you. Everybody did a really, really good job together. It was amazing. I'm going to tell a little story about that later, but you finished talking about this first. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Yes. What I was trying to say is that sometimes we evaluate the Christian events for what happened during the ban. And I feel like those things can be wonderful, you know, But I think that is much more important to question, for example, what happened six months later or what happened one year later. And that is something that we have seen. We have seen the results of the event that we have in January. [00:41:11] Speaker B: That's incredible. I just give God all the glory for that. Because there was a moment that as I was traveling out to Chile with my wife Monique, we didn't know if we were going to make it. I know you remember the frustrations that we had with traveling there. And there was a moment where I said, I just want to go home. But God had other plans. And God says, no, no, you need to go there. [00:41:38] Speaker A: And there is another beautiful connection with Generation Spark now, because two of those churches who participate in the camp are now part of the new Spanish speaking cohort that we are just starting. So it was an opportunity to start thinking about an intergenerational ministry. And now those churches are being a part of four new cohorts. So that is really exciting to me. [00:42:03] Speaker B: One of the beautiful things that I will never forget. And Gabriel, you were part of this with me. And so friends who are listening, Gabriel and I go back a little ways and we both talked about the planning for this event. And we prayed. We gave it to God. We said, God, just use this event in powerful ways. And it began in prayer and began with a plan. And we worked through the plan. And sometimes the plan doesn't always work exactly, but God still works through that. But there was this beautiful moment where we were together with over 100 people and we did communion together. Remember that? [00:42:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:42:42] Speaker B: We broke the bread and we shared and we openly shared that this the broken body of Christ for you and the shed blood of Christ for you, for each individual there. And they received it, and they received it with joy. And there was this overwhelming joy that I saw in the eyes of many people, just tears of coming together as a community and recognizing that the barriers that divide us could be countries, could be traditions, it could be different things, was all of a sudden gone because of the broken body and the shed blood of Jesus Christ. That, to me, was a powerful moment of what God is doing in the world and what we can learn as we work together. You and I hadn't met before we started planning this, and by the end of our time together, I would dare say you are a close friend of mine, and it gives me joy to know you as part of. Of my life. But we learned together, we journeyed together, and we didn't let a language barrier divide us. In fact, it united us. And one of the things, listeners, you don't know this, but most of the people that were at this event don't speak English. And so I had to work with a translator for the entire weekend. And it was a lot of work. But God did something in that moment, too. God takes those things that feel for us very difficult and does something powerful. We just laid it at the foot of the cross and we just said, God, do your thing. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh, yes. And remember, Ron, that something that was a barrier in the beginning, that it was the language, became an opportunity for the translator. Yes. And we're talking about ac. She was. She studied. She studied in the. In the college. I don't know. I don't know how is the name, but it is. Her word was translating from English to Spanish and from Spanish to English. She studied English. [00:44:48] Speaker B: She's an interpreter, is what we. We call it here in North America. Yeah, yeah. See how we work together? We can just read each other now. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Oh, yes, yes. So she was an interpreter, but she was teaching me about it. And she was feeling really frustrated because she wasn't seeing how something that she's studying in college was helping her in her calling. And for her, she didn't even know that she was going to do this work. And I didn't even know that she was a translator. And when Euron came to the camp and I was like, we need a translator, because I'm not gonna do that work the whole time because it's going to be too much for me. And someone for her church said, hey, you know what? We have a translator in our church. So I came to her and I was like, do you want to do this? She was like, oh, yes. I Want to do it. And after she interpreted for you, she came to us and she was like, I was thinking about leaving it, about not doing it anymore. But now I see why God let me study this, because now I can see how I can serve the church doing what God let me study. So it was something. Something that at the first time was a barrier becoming an opportunity for someone. Wow, that is incredible. [00:46:10] Speaker B: It was so powerful. And I had some. Spent some time with Izzy afterwards and heard her story and her husband's story, and it was powerful. And as I. As you just described it, again, I get goosebumps because this was a Holy Spirit moving. This was a God moving. And boy, we got to get out of the way when God does this kind of stuff, right? Because it's just so powerful. It's so powerful. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:46:39] Speaker B: What did you learn from our time working together? What was something that you took away that you thought, oh, this is interesting. And this may be a blessing for other churches as they start thinking about maybe working together, together as well. [00:46:55] Speaker A: So I think one of the biggest lesson for me was the importance of partnership. Again, as I have said during all this, all conversation, this idea that we need each other, because sometimes in ministry, we think that we need to do everything ourselves. A local church has its resources, its leaders, its experience, its culture. An organization, for example, like Generation Spark, brings other experience, others ideas, other resources, and new relationships as the relationship that became with you and I. So with those two things came together in a healthy way, something very powerful can happen. And I think one of the reasons the Chile experience worked well was that I wasn't simply someone coming from the United States and saying, this is how you should do ministry. You know what I mean? It was collaborative. We understood our context, we understood our young people, we understood the culture. And generations brought experience and perspective that help us think differently about intergenerational ministry. We learn from each other. And I think that's the model I want to see more often in. In our ministry. Not dependency, not one culture, teaching another culture, everything but partnership, listening to each other, learning from each other, serving together. So I think that is really important. [00:48:28] Speaker B: Those are good words, Gabriel. I appreciate that. And for me, too, I think it really emphasized this. And you said partnership, collaboration, working together for the kingdom, and so, so important. Gabriel, one of the things I do in these podcast interviews or conversations is what scripture texts have resonated with you when you think about your work. Or maybe it's a text that God has been speaking to you that keeps showing up for you in your life. What's a scripture text that you'd like to share with our listeners today that's been important to you [00:49:15] Speaker A: during this time during the ministry that I am doing right now, One of the passage that really reflects my work and what am I doing now, it's Psalms 145, verse 4 or 145, verse 4. And let me look for it because I wasn't ready for it. So let me, I'm going to look for it to read it in English. So just give me one second. [00:49:41] Speaker B: No problem. And you look it up for a moment. And I'm going to invite you, once you find the English version, to also read it in Spanish. I think it'd be really good for our listeners to hear both. And if you're able to do that, that would be great. Again, that's a powerful verse. So, so important. I preached on it a couple of months ago in my church and I'm preaching on it again this coming Sunday on a different church. And so I know the verse you're talking about, but I'd love for you to read it in both languages if you could. Sure. [00:50:17] Speaker A: So I will read it in Spanish first and then in English. So in Spanish it says generedacion a generacion celebrados. In English it says, one generation shall praise your works to another and shall declare your mighty acts. And I love this passage because it gives us a beautiful pictures of intergenerational ministry that it's something that I'm working right now because faith is not something that we are supposed to keep to ourselves. One generation has the responsibility and the privilege at the same time because it is not something. I mean, it is not a responsibility only, but it is a privilege too of telling the next generation about who God is and what he has done. So good. [00:51:13] Speaker B: Gabriel, thank you for being here today. Your story, what God is doing through your life and the ministry that he's called you to is just inspiring to me. And I'm praying for listeners who are taking this in that you've heard something that you can take away as well or just feel inspired in your own ministry. Call Gabriel. We think about resources for churches and I know you and I have been working with a few different resources over the last year and a half. Is there a book or a resource that has really stood out to you as you think about the work that you're doing in Santiago, Chile, but also perhaps even your cross multinational connections? Right. And so is there a resource that has been speaking to you recently that you think I Want to share this with the listeners? Sure. [00:52:09] Speaker A: And probably our listeners maybe have heard about this book before. But let me tell you a little story about this book, because it was a present that Pedro Agudelo, who is a friend of mine, and you know him as well. [00:52:25] Speaker B: I do. [00:52:26] Speaker A: It was the present that he gave me during the camp. I didn't know he was gonna give me this present, this book as present. And when he gave it to me, he was there, Ron. He was like, hey, I know so much about that book. And after it happens, we start having training sessions with you and me and we start talking about this book. So I'm talking about this one that I'm showing you here. I know that all listeners are not going to see it, but the title in Spanish is Creciendo Juntos that I know that in English it is growing with by Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Brad Griffin, who it's has been really, really important because it tells stories from other churches that are really helpful for our ministry. So if I can recommend something, it will be definitely this book. You have to read it. [00:53:26] Speaker B: Wonderful. Thank you, Gabriel. And you're right, it is a great book. I know both of the authors or all three of the authors of that book, and it's been just a helpful resource for myself in my own ministry, but also for our two denominations, the Reformed Church in America and the Christian Reformed Church in North America. Gabriel, I want to say thank you for your time today. This has been a joy for me. Anytime I get to connect with you, it's always a joy. But this has been extremely special because we went a little bit deeper today, and I pray that as we've shared some of Gabriel's story with everyone, that it has been a blessing for all of you. If you look or want to find out more about his church, we'll include it in the notes for this podcast. We'll also include things around the Generation Spark and the resource that Gabriel was just talking about from Fuller. Gabriel, any last words before we say goodbye to our listeners? [00:54:28] Speaker A: Just. I want to say thank you to you, Ron. Thank you for this opportunity to be here. It was an incredible time. I was really. I mean, I was a little bit afraid about having this time because English is not my first language. So having a podcast completely in English was a challenge for me. But thank you. Thank you for making it possible. It was a really good time. And so just, I just want to say thank you to you. I thank you for all of those who are going to listen this time. I hope that this is helpful for you. [00:55:00] Speaker B: Thank you so much and blessings to you and we look forward to connecting again, hopefully in the future. And listeners, thank you for joining us. We look forward to continuing to put out this material and information to all of your churches. [00:55:16] Speaker A: Have a great day everyone. Bye bye. [00:55:24] Speaker B: It.